Welcome to another episode of spotlight on natural resources, where we shine some light on what's going on in our environment. I'm your host, Amy Lefringhouse.
Erin Garrett: 00:16And I'm your cohost, Erin Garrett.
Amy Lefringhouse: 00:19And today, we are here with Sarah Zack, and she is a pollution prevention extension specialist with Illinois Indiana Sea Grant and Illinois Extension. Welcome, Sarah.
Sarah Zack: 00:31Yeah. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you for having me.
Amy Lefringhouse: 00:33Well, we are going to chat about PFAS. And so that is our first question right out the gate, Sarah. What is PFAS?
Sarah Zack: 00:43So, this is all coming from someone who is not a chemist. I'm going to pretend to be a chemist and put on my chemistry hat. PFAS stands for per and polyfluoroalkyl substances, which is a mouthful, which is why we just call them PFAS chemicals. But they're a group of something like 15,000 man made chemicals, that are used in consumer goods and industrial processes and things like that. And, recently they've been making their way into the news with increasing frequency, because they're being found in natural waters like rivers and streams and lakes and also in drinking water, which is sort of the big, hot issue right, now.
Erin Garrett: 01:28That's a huge group. 15,000 different chemicals. That's crazy.
Sarah Zack: 01:33Yeah.
Erin Garrett: 01:33I did not know there were that many.
Sarah Zack: 01:35Yeah. There's a they're all just little, like, offshoots of one another. Like, as one breaks down, it breaks into a different one, and I don't think I don't know for sure, but I don't think anybody quite understands the scope of all of these chemicals that are potentially in the environment.
Erin Garrett: 01:50Interesting. Other folks may have heard them referred to as forever chemicals. Can you talk a little bit on why, they've kind of gotten that nickname, I guess?
Sarah Zack: 02:00Yeah. Yeah. So, I think that's a really it's an easy way not just to remember what they are but what they do. And the reason that they're called forever chemicals is because they don't really go away. And that is part of their utility too. They're an incredibly useful, group of chemicals. They resist heat and, grease and oil and water and they do a fantastic job of it. So they're used or or some of them are used in a lot of different consumer goods and and things like that that we we wouldn't even know that they're there. But once they get into the environment, they have a tendency to stay in the environment. Once they get into organisms like us or fish, frogs, they stay in us. We can't really get rid of those chemicals very easily and then they tend to accumulate, in us and in the environment.
Erin Garrett: 02:57So what are some examples of those, like, consumer goods? I know I've heard of them, like, with nonstick pans, but that's about, like, it. So I feel like there are like, it sounds like there are a lot of other products. What are some other examples of places that you could find those?
Sarah Zack: 03:13Yeah. Like, nonstick pans, I think, are the ones that most people have heard of because that was the sort of the, I don't know, tipping point maybe you could say. The first one that sort of became newsworthy and, and that people really learned about, but they're added to, a ton of different products. Another one that's really well known is Scotchgard. Waterproofing sprays and things like that are typically made with PFAS chemicals. They are in cosmetics like liquid lipsticks and waterproof mascaras in particular. They're in food packaging. You know, the to go containers are often lined with PFAS chemicals so that food doesn't stick to them or, you know, grease, you know, doesn't absorb into it and ruin the packaging. They're in carpets, clothing. It's a really, really wide range of products.
Amy Lefringhouse: 04:12Okay. So they're getting into the environment. They might be even getting into us. Like, how how do they get into the environment? How do they enter into the environment? And where do we, like, store them? Do they we store them in our tissues? I guess I had two questions there for you.
Sarah Zack: 04:28They end up in the environment in a couple different ways. One is through the manufacturing process. Right? A lot of wastewater, and things like that which didn't used to be very regulated, so they were dumped into a lot of water bodies. They get into the sediments. They get kicked up when things get moved around, and they're just kind of there. That's one of the, typically, the more high profile exposures come from areas where there's been industrial pollution. But, I mean, even things like your carpets, you know, when you walk on it and you disturb the fibers, PFAS gets into the dust and things like that. So wearing away of materials, you know, things like that can all shed PFAS, and then it ends up sort of out in the environment in dust, in water, and things like that. And what was your second question? It was about?
Amy Lefringhouse: 05:19Yeah. Like, do they do we, like, ingest some of those chemicals? And
Sarah Zack: 05:24Yeah.
Amy Lefringhouse: 05:24Do we do we ingest them? Do we, like, hold them in our tissues? Or how does how I guess
Sarah Zack: 05:29Yeah. We can yeah. We can ingest them, but we can also absorb them into our skin. So, like, if they're buying personal care products and we rub those personal care products on our bodies, they can get absorbed into our skin. And
Amy Lefringhouse: 05:40Okay.
Sarah Zack: 05:40Eventually, they make their way to, to our bloodstream.
Amy Lefringhouse: 05:44Okay. Okay.
Erin Garrett: 05:45So on that note, are there any
Sarah Zack: 05:48It's a really happy topic. I'm super happy to be chatting.
Erin Garrett: 05:53Are there health concerns then associated with that exposure? Right? Because it's all around us. Now that I know this, I'm like, oh boy.
Sarah Zack: 06:01It's terrifying.
Erin Garrett: 06:02Like what do we what do we need to be aware of when it comes to our health with with this exposure?
Sarah Zack: 06:08So I think that there are two important things to keep in mind. Number 1 is that they're everywhere and a variety of research studies have found that they're in all of us. I think that there was a study done by the National Institute of Health some years ago that found 1 or more PFAS chemicals in 98% of the blood samples they tested. Though we regularly say it's in all of us to some degree no matter what. And EPA has recently said that there isn't a level of PFAS chemical that can be considered not impactful to your health. So it's in all of us. We're acknowledging that it's bad. But the important thing to keep in mind, I think, is that it's been in all of us for years and years and years and years. And so these aren't acutely toxic chemicals when they're found in such low concentrations. And I think that there probably is a lot to do in terms of long term studies to see sort of what the impacts could be. But they aren't something that you're gonna take a drink of water and, like, have a reaction to or anything like that. They're just sort of there, and they aren't good, and they may be increasing your risks for certain diseases, certain types of cancer are really common. Thyroid cancer is really common with with PFAS exposure, but it's it's in all of us. It's in all of these products. You know, to to a certain degree, there are things that you can do to protect your health a little bit more, but also to a certain degree, there are things you can't avoid as well.
Amy Lefringhouse: 07:58So would you classify this as emerging? It's kind of an emerging in there keep on keep, continuing to collect data to figure out what what effects it does have on our health from a long term standpoint?
Sarah Zack: 08:11Yeah. Absolutely. The research is coming out on these chemicals. Every day, new research is being published. It's an incredibly emerging, topic. You know, really, it's been around since the fifties, I think, is when it was first discovered, and used in I think Teflon may have been the first. Teflon, Scotchgard, I think, were 2 of the first uses, but then it was also used in firefighting foams. Mhmm. And so those things we've known were potentially hazardous since, I would say, the seventies, but there really hasn't been a lot of work done on these until, you know, the past 15, maybe 20 years tops.
Amy Lefringhouse: 08:55Okay. So what has been the response then, I guess, from from a regulatory standpoint and then also, like, the industry, those folks, those businesses making those products. Has there have there been changes recently that we we have seen or that that we may see?
Sarah Zack: 09:13Yeah. Yeah. So, I know a perfect a good example of that is, Teflon. No longer uses. It used to use a chemical, one of the PFAS chemicals, PFOA, PFOA, we call it. And we know that that's one of the most toxic PFAS chemicals, and they phased it out and they no longer produce it.
Amy Lefringhouse: 09:35Okay.
Sarah Zack: 09:36That said, they switched to another PFAS chemical. Mhmm. And so it remains to be seen whether that chemical will be proven to be safe or not because for a while everybody thought that that PFOA was safe. So there is, I think, a lot of swapping going on with newer newer chemicals like this, sometimes without a big body of research sort of declaring that it's super safe. But we're definitely seeing a ton of movement, at the federal level, in particular looking at these chemicals in drinking water. There's a big push from the states just within the past 5 years, because people were hearing about PFAS in drinking water, and some states were testing for it, some states weren't testing for it. The states that were testing for it maybe were finding it but didn't have any money to clean it up, couldn't do anything about it. And, just within the past 2 months, that has changed because the EPA has released enforceable drinking water regulations. So they set a level for I think it was for 5 different of the most common PFAS chemicals. Some of them, the levels are essentially 0. Other ones are are very, very low. But the gist of it is that drinking water, utilities have 3 years to test for PFAS chemicals. And then beyond that, once they find their results, they have 5 years to remediate any issues, whether that's installing filters or switching to new sources of water. You know, that's up to them how they handle it, but they've sort of got that finite time period that they have to to take care of this, and they have to disclose it to the public. So if drink if it's found in your drinking water, they have to tell you that it's in your drinking water.
Amy Lefringhouse: 11:28But it was 15,000 chemicals that I guess it would be hard to
Sarah Zack: 11:33Yeah.
Amy Lefringhouse: 11:34Like, know the the the concerns, you know, know the research on all of those, you know. I guess it's a I guess it would be a family. Is that what you call it?
Sarah Zack: 11:42Yes. Yeah. Family chemicals. I think it requires a, like, an approved testing process in order for those tests for PFAS to be acceptable.
Amy Lefringhouse: 11:54Okay.
Sarah Zack: 11:54And there are only a few of the chemicals actually have those standard testing
Amy Lefringhouse: 11:59Okay.
Sarah Zack: 11:59Procedures.
Amy Lefringhouse: 12:00Okay.
Sarah Zack: 12:01So we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of, you know, making easy, accurate PFAS testing for the whole family of chemicals available. That's maybe a pipe dream. I don't know. It's a lot of chemical. But it's expensive to test for PFAS too.
Amy Lefringhouse: 12:17Sure.
Sarah Zack: 12:17It's not cheap.
Erin Garrett: 12:22But then there are ways to remove it from the drinking water. Like you said, like a filtering process
Sarah Zack: 12:27Yeah.
Erin Garrett: 12:27Is something that can be done. It's not like they're here forever. Well, in an area forever, I guess.
Sarah Zack: 12:34Yeah.
Erin Garrett: 12:34But then you have to what do you do with what you filter out and how you handle that?
Sarah Zack: 12:38That yeah. That is an excellent question. I I just read, an article the other day that was talking about a a utility in North Carolina. There's a chemical plant there, and I'm not gonna name names or anything like that, but there's a chemical plant there that got caught dumping PFAS a number of years ago into the water, and it's highly contaminated. And it was one of the first, like, major bodies of water, that sort of became newsworthy for that type of contamination. And I just read an article that they, in one of the water utilities, they successfully installed filtration system that is removing the PFAS and producing clean water. And my first question was, what are they doing with the material that is capturing all that PFAS? Mhmm. Because there are really simple ways to to filter it out and the carbon filters and things like that can can filter it out. But then what do you do with that waste material? Do you landfill it? And if you landfill it, how are you certain that it's going to stay enclosed and stay capped and not end up in the groundwater and the soils? . That's where a lot of the first court cases came from was disposal. Right? And disposing of them in unacceptable ways and water supplies getting polluted as a result of that. So I don't have an answer for that question. I too would like an answer for that question. Mhmm. But, yeah, I mean, it's toxic waste. So do you burn it? When you burn it, does that just put PFAS into the air to settle? I I I don't know. I wish I did know that actually.
Erin Garrett: 14:24Right. If it's in all of those consumer products and then we're sending all that to the landfill too, is it then just, you know, can it leach out and
Sarah Zack: 14:32Yes.
Erin Garrett: 14:32To the groundwater? So
Sarah Zack: 14:34Yeah. And that's one of the ways too that it ends up in our drinking water because the leachate from landfills gets treated and incorporated into natural bodies of water, drinking water sources, and things like that. So that landfills are a source. Though my guess is it would have to be in, you know, a contained, you know, like, nuclear waste, cemented in, right, so that nothing can leach out of it. I I I'm kind of at a loss as to how especially if if it's everywhere, the scale of those those removal byproduct of that removal is gonna be really large. So that I think is an interesting question that hopefully will get answered, you know, in the coming years.
Erin Garrett: 15:16Well, we always like to end on a high note on the podcast. So what steps can individuals take? Like, what can we actually do to reduce our exposure, to be more aware, and to just take steps to to keep ourselves and our families safe?
Sarah Zack: 15:35There are, I think, some really simple, tangible ways to reduce your exposure to PFAS chemicals. I think the best first thing to do is to make sure that if you're using nonstick pans, you dispose of them once they become scratched and that Teflon surface is disturbed, and you pay very close attention to the heating, limits. Most of them aren't meant to be heated above 400 degrees. I don't know how other people cook, but I gen I tend to just turn that heat on super high to heat my pan up really, really hot, and I'm I'm sure my pans get hotter than 400 degrees. So, you know, not using a scratched pan, keeping an eye on your heat if you are using nonstick pan is is one way to do it. But if possible, avoiding the use of nonstick pans is best. Using something like stainless steel or regular old cast iron Mhmm. Or now they have the new ceramic coated, pans that are nonstick as well without those those types of coatings. And I will, fess up too that I I use stainless steel pans. I have used stainless steel pans for about 5 years. I moved and I threw out all my old pans and we got new pans when we moved because they were really old. They were old nonstick Teflon coated pans, and they were scratched up. Like you wouldn't believe. I'd had them since college. They were in horrible shape, and now I look back in horror
Amy Lefringhouse: 17:08Yeah.
Sarah Zack: 17:08At the state of those pans. Knowing what I know now, I really should not have been cooking with those pans. Thankfully got rid of them when my kids were little. So my kids now pretty much eat food from stainless steel pans. But, but, yeah. So, I mean, these are things that everybody does. And, if you don't know, you can't fix it. Right? So
Erin Garrett: 17:30I mean, pans are expensive.
Sarah Zack: 17:32Not immune to that stuff.
Sarah Zack: 17:33Right? Yeah. Pans are expensive.
Erin Garrett: 17:35That price component because we did we we got ceramic pans too, but I don't know. There's just something though because I I just went and bought. I was in the aisle. Because I wanted a nonstick pan Yeah. That was ceramic, but was actually gonna be nonstick.
Erin Garrett: 17:50And it's very hard to find and, like, reading the labels and then, like, half of them don't even say what the what it's composed on it. Uh-huh. Has no message on it. So I finally found one. It's but, like, our ceramic that we have are not super nonstick, like, depending on what you cook in it.
Sarah Zack: 18:07Use a little bit of butter or
Erin Garrett: 18:09Yeah. Or it's still sticking with that. So we're like, oh, I want, like, one pan that works. So
Sarah Zack: 18:14that's what I did too. I bought one for eggs pretty much because I can't cook I can't cook eggs in stainless steel.
Erin Garrett: 18:21Yeah. There's no way.
Sarah Zack: 18:22It's just a mess. So, yeah, I mean, we're all I mean, even people that know these things are still sort of struggling with them. Right? The other thing that I would say I think one of the number one things and people don't realize this, but one of the number one things that pops up a lot for being contaminated with PFAS is microwave popcorn bags. Microwave popcorn bags are like a heavy hitter.
Sarah Zack: 18:47Oh. I always tell people when I talk to them about emerging contaminants, don't use microwave popcorn bags and don't drink bottled water. Those are the 2 things. And then you won't get PFAS and you won't get microplastics. Drink tap water and pop your popcorn on the stove or in the microwave in a it's actually cheaper to spend $10 and get a silicone popper and a big old single Orville Redenbacher's than it is to buy, you know,
Amy Lefringhouse: 19:14the little bags.
Sarah Zack: 19:15The individual bags. Yeah. But, you know, thing mic so microwave popcorn bags, takeout containers, fast food packaging, it can all have that. So I think just being a cautious consumer, being careful, about, you know, where you take those risks and what you use and, maybe staying abreast of the news. I know there was has been some fast casual restaurants that have been in the news recently for having PFAS in their, in their packaging. So, I think just keeping the ear out for those things. And then I mentioned carpets as having, PFAS in them, so I think vacuuming your carpets regularly is really helpful in disposing of that dust. You know, we're getting that out of the sort of stream of air that you may potentially be breathing. Right? If your kids are playing on the floor, you know, it gets that dust away from them. And then, you know, similarly, taking your shoes off when you enter your house is just good hygiene practice in for a lot of ways, but, you know, you could be tracking chemicals in on the bottom of your shoes too, so taking your shoes off. The last thing, I guess, I will touch on is drinking water because drinking water is kinda tricky. Right? We can't control what comes in the tap at our house. If you're on a public drinking water supply, find out if it's been tested for PFAS, find out what those levels are. I know just today, I got a city newsletter from the town that I live in, and they released the drinking water report. Mhmm. And I checked it, and they tested ours for PFAS, and our water is is good to go, and I was really, really happy. But if it's not, you know, installing a filtration system or or, you know, if you've got the money a reverse osmosis or, you know, something like that, even just using a refrigerator filter or a Brita pitcher, every little bit of that can help. And if you're on a well, it's on you to get that testing done, and I would encourage you to do it.
Sarah Zack: 21:16And if it's expensive and you can't afford it, I know the federal government has grants that can help offset the cost for that. And I'll put some links in, the blog post that will go along with this where people can, find information out about that. Because a lot of that was announced just in the past couple of months as a part of this big push to set the enforceable levels. So keeping an eye on your drinking water, whether it's a well or public, I think is, is is really important because that's really gonna be the biggest way I think you're you have potential for contamination because you're showering in the water, you're bathing in it, you're playing in it outside, you're drinking it, and so if you've got high levels of PFAS in it, you know, you're
Erin Garrett: 22:03That makes sense. Right? Thinking about the ex exposure time that you have and, like, frequency with different things is important to keep in mind too.
Sarah Zack: 22:11Yeah. I mean, if you if you've got a waterproof jacket that's been treated with Scotchgard before you got it, are you wearing that jacket 24/7? No. You're not wearing that jacket 24/7. But drinking water, right, with the water in your home, you know, you're coming into contact with that a lot more often than a jacket that you wear, you know, every once in a while. I would still encourage you to find a jacket that is not treated with Scotchgard. If you can't buy a new jacket, you know, wearing it every once in a while is not gonna kill you. For sure.
Amy Lefringhouse: 22:40Sure. Sure. And drinking drinking water a lot of frequency. You're you're carpeting. You're walking over that on a regular basis.
Amy Lefringhouse: 22:48And your pans, you're cooking with those pans. You know? Well
Sarah Zack: 22:52I don't or maybe on a daily basis.
Amy Lefringhouse: 22:54I don't know if I cook on a daily basis, but lots of people do cook on a daily basis.
Sarah Zack: 23:00Many people are better at that than I. But, yes, regularly. We'll just say regularly using those pans. Yeah. Whatever regular means. Right? It's all relative.
Amy Lefringhouse: 23:10Exactly. Exactly. Alright. Well, thank you again, Sarah. Now is the time we are going to do our special spotlight. So during this podcast, we ask our guests and we are those of us as hosts, we answer the question as to what you have seen in the last few weeks or last month that was really cool in nature. So, Erin, why don't you start us off with your special spotlight?
Erin Garrett: 23:37Alright. I'll just give an update on my home garden. Well, since we usually talk about native plants on the podcast, I am blown away by how fast my garden so most of these plants I put in last fall or this spring, and I have blazing star that's almost as tall as me, which I didn't know was possible. I have purple poppy mallows that are 3 plants that have spread 6 feet wide. It's insane. And then just all the wild all the insects that I'm seeing and all the birds that I'm hearing, I just downloaded the Merlin bird app. I've gotten to that phase and I'm really excited to hear everything that's visiting my yard, but I found lightning bugs in the yard, which made me really happy. I found this beautiful I think it's a type of Zale moth. That's a new one for me. That's what a iNaturalist told me. But it was on my window and it was, like, a pretty sizable moth. So it's just always so fun. I the just the landscape changes, like, every week there's something new that's blooming or growing. You know, small changes can really make a big difference. So it's been super fun. That's been my my special spotlight. Every day when I come home from work, I, like, run around the garden and see what's blooming.
Amy Lefringhouse: 24:53I do the same thing. And I was I wasn't gonna use it as my special spotlight, but I did see my first lightning bug or as some people might call them fireflies. Right? Depending on where you're from. Like, I think it was it was last week. I think I saw the first ones, and I was looking around and I was like, I think my yard might have the most lightning bugs around. I don't know.
Amy Lefringhouse: 25:15It's so fun. What about you, Sarah?
Sarah Zack: 25:18So I was gonna say something negative because I'm mad at nature because we don't have cicadas and we were expecting cicadas and I was very excited about cicadas. But now I'm feeling inspired and actually the thing that comes to mind is so, this isn't a native plant, but it's not invasive either. So we have a catmint in our yard, and it comes up beautifully every spring with beautiful purple flowers, and the thing about the catmint is that the bumblebees just flock to it. So we've got 2 patches, 2 contained patches in our yard, and they both came up really beautifully this year. And just within the past, I would say week, 10 days, maybe the bumblebees have descended and they are just covered in bumblebees. Oh. And my littlest, my 4 year old and I, we just stand there and watch the bumblebees. And it is like the highlight of the summer for me because it will happen all summer. But when they first arrive, it it's really it just makes me really happy to see that the bumblebees are back, and they found my catmint patches. They like my native plants too, but there's something about that catmint that the bumblebees just go for.
Amy Lefringhouse: 26:36That's cool. Bumblebees are all always really cool to to see and just observe, and they're they bumble. Right? They're kinda they kinda roll around slowly.
Sarah Zack: 26:45Fat and happy.
Amy Lefringhouse: 26:47No. They're fat and happy.
Sarah Zack: 26:48Love it.
Amy Lefringhouse: 26:49Exactly. They they'll let you take your pic their picture.
Sarah Zack: 26:53Uh-huh. Yeah. Absolutely. And they help my kids too to not be as afraid of bees, I think, as they would be too because they're like, oh, bumblebees are harmless and they're so cute and they're so fun. And then they don't freak out when they see other bees
Amy Lefringhouse: 27:05Sure.
Sarah Zack: 27:06Flying around too.
Amy Lefringhouse: 27:07Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good.
Sarah Zack: 27:10But I'm still mad about the cicadas.
Amy Lefringhouse: 27:12That's Where are they?
Sarah Zack: 27:14Still mad. Yeah.
Erin Garrett: 27:16Alright, Amy.
Amy Lefringhouse: 27:18Okay. My, special spotlight. I was on my way to a state park nearby, and this time of year, you see a lot of turtles crossing the road. And, I stopped the other day because I don't know. When I was out going out to the state park, I saw one on the side of the road and I stopped, and I was like, oh, no. I need to help this little guy out. So I stopped and took a look at him, and it was a, eastern box turtle. So he he actually, I think it was a he. I have seen I have read that if they have red eyes and they're just very have a lot of coloration, it it's a male. So I think it was a male, eastern box turtle. So I helped him cross to the other side of the road so he wasn't, gonna be hit by any other oncoming vehicles. So that was kinda neat to see. I it's always I don't know. This time of year, you see him, you know, crossing a lot looking for, mates or nesting sites or, you know, that sort of thing. But, yeah, kinda neat to see him.
Sarah Zack: 28:24That's fun.
Erin Garrett: 28:24I saw my first snapping turtle crossing the I've seen them before, but crossing the road the other day. And I was like, you're huge. Go, you can make it. I mean it was okay. But I've never seen them. I've seen them dead on the side of the road. I've never seen the high one, like, successfully making it. So I was like, go, little dude. Make it.
Sarah Zack: 28:47That's fun.
Amy Lefringhouse: 28:48Yep. Yep. I feel like we do a lot of stopping and moving turtles in my family. My sister does, and then we are always, like, taking pictures. Like, we we get over there, little guy. So, yeah, that's my special spotlight that I saw this past month. Well, thank you again, Sarah, for coming on and talking to us about PFAS and what we can do to, help ourselves and help reduce our own exposure and just being more aware of what PFAS are.
Amy Lefringhouse: 29:19And this has been another episode of Spotlight on Natural Resources, so thank you everyone for tuning in.
Matt Wiley: 29:42University of Illinois Extension.