Taking a systems-based approach to community water management

Welcome to another episode of the Everyday Environment podcast, where we explore the environment we see every day. I'm your host, Abigail Garofalo.

And I'm your cohost, Erin Garrett.

And today, we are here with Kara Salazar, the assistant program leader for community development at Purdue Extension and the sustainable communities Extension specialist with Illinois Indiana Sea Grant and the Department of Forestry and Natural Resources. Welcome, Kara.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Happy to have you. We have a long time history with each other. I actually used to be your intern, so I love that our professional relationship has grown over time and and developed to work together. I was excited to bring you on the pod because this is a project we love and love to bring you on projects that I love and work with you. So thanks so much.

It's great to get to work with you.

Well, you are here to talk to us about community planning and sustainable development. This season, we're talking all about water. And stormwater in particular, water in general is just a huge topic for all community planners, any local leaders looking to figure out what do I do when I have too much stormwater. Even too, like, I don't have enough water, and so this is a huge challenge for a lot of communities. So we're excited to bring you on to talk about the community planning aspect. I wanna start with a little bit. You know, you have a a wonderfully long title. Tell us a little bit about what you do with Sea Grant and Purdue Extension.

Sure. So, my work focuses on environmental planning, community engagement, and community development. I work with communities throughout Indiana, and I partner a lot in Illinois and across other Great Lakes states. I work in supporting communities in different types of planning efforts, so it may be supporting them in an element of their comprehensive plan. There may be a specific topic that they're working on, and we'll, support them through parks planning. I work in renewable energy planning as well. I have a large grant focusing on that. Several different aspects of land use and conservation intersections. So working with communities on engaging the public in different types of decision making points, helping them come to a shared vision, and then working with them on their final planning efforts.

Nice. So a lot of these, like, resiliency efforts, planning, things like that, this takes a lot of time. That's why we have to kind of have this long term plan within our communities of, like, how are we going to handle this problem? What are we gonna do about it? And sometimes it takes a lot of coordination and logistics with a lot of different stakeholders too. So having this expertise to offer communities to assist them with this process of somebody who knows, is really, really beneficial.

It's true because communities and having the local expertise don't always they can't always get access to the local expertise that they need, so they are working with different kinds of consultants, university professionals, Extension. So that is where we we come into play and work very collaboratively with communities on helping them and in their planning issues.

That's great. And that kinda leads into the first question that we wanna ask you to dive into our topic today. When it comes to stormwater and the water resources that our communities have, what are kind of the top challenges that these communities face in kind of managing their stormwater?

Sure. So the first challenge I'll mention is infrastructure and the strain that we have on our infrastructure. A lot of our water management systems were built a long time ago. So historical hydrological patterns have changed, and they no longer align with some of these realities in the way that our infrastructure is set up. And especially urban expansion of impervious services, such as parking lots, roads, rooftops. They've really very much disrupted, these natural hydrological cycles. So these changes have resulted in increased surface runoff, reduced groundwater recharge, and higher flooding risks. And the second one I want to mention then is water quality degradation. So stormwater acts as a vector for pollutants carrying contaminants like oils, heavy metals, agricultural runoff, and debris into waterways. These nonpoint source pollution, aspects exacerbate a lot of ecosystem stress. The third one, economic pressures can create a lot of barriers to progress, so modernizing water infrastructure requires substantial financial investment. And communities we know have constrained budgets. This can lead to deferred maintenance that increases vulnerability to catastrophic events and failures over time. And then compounding these issues is, of course, climate change, and I know we'll talk about that later. Intensifying rainfall variability places a lot of unprecedented stress on our water management systems. So these shifts challenge the original design of our aging infrastructure.

The infrastructure is a thing that seems to come up all the time. So I'm in southernmost Illinois, and in our rural communities, it seems to kinda be, like, that's that big problem. Right? Is that there hasn't necessarily been that long term planning to budget for and save to, you know, update and replace that infrastructure. And it seems like all we have the funds and ability to do is just patch it as parts of it fail or break. And it's just, like, kind of a ticking time bomb that we're waiting for something really bad to happen. So that definitely, you know, that infrastructure with the economic capacity is, like, a huge challenge.

I wonder too, given the age, like, we we learn new information about the things that we installed however many years ago. So, like, there's newer technologies, newer materials that we can use in our infrastructure that, you know, are maybe safer or less or more durable. You know, that aging infrastructure doesn't have those newer pieces to it, that'll make it a little more resilient. And so that planning piece comes into play as well as, like, well, we don't wanna just install it and have to fix it every once in a while. We want it to last for a really long time. So how do we plan for a system that we don't have to patch for so many years? And then the maintenance of that system, big challenges. One of the solutions that comes up a lot to the issues that we talked about of putting a lot less stress on our infrastructure that the stormwater causes is green infrastructure. So what are some ways that communities can integrate green infrastructure to improve stormwater management?

Right. So green infrastructure is a great tool to have in the toolbox, because they do leverage natural processes to address a lot of different types of stormwater challenges. So for example, rain gardens, these are engineered bioretention systems, which will capture and infiltrate stormwater runoff, and they very much mimic our natural hydrological processes. They reduce peak flow rates, they filter contaminants and recharge groundwater, and, of course, they can look very beautiful, but they are also very functional as a localized ecosystem service. And permeable pavements are another one that offer some advanced solutions. These materials are engineered with high porosity so that precipitation will infiltrate directly into subsoil. And as a result, they'll reduce flooding risks by mitigating surface runoff and facilitating recharge. And applications can be pretty versatile, so you can have them in parking lots and sidewalks. Another one are urban tree canopies. These provide really critical benefits. Trees mitigate a lot of stormwater impacts through intersection, evapotranspiration, soil stabilization, and also improve urban microclimates. In fact, a single mature tree can manage several hundred gallons of stormwater annually, which will significantly reduce runoff. So keeping those trees intact and also planting more is really important.

Bioswales are another tool, sometimes mistaken for drainage channels, but these are highly effective landscape features, and they're optimized for stormwater conveyance and pollutant filtration. But they have to be designed with specific vegetation and soil compositions so that they can enhance water quality while supporting biodiversity too. And really the core principle of green infrastructure is to use a systems based approach, which integrates the natural and built environments. And unlike our conventional gray infrastructure, which focuses solely on conveyance and storage, getting water away from things and storing it for a while. Green infrastructure prioritizes multifunctionality, which is really, really important. So they simultaneously deliver hydrological, ecological, and social benefits.

I work mainly in, like, the residential landscape. I do some community things, but it's so interesting to hear you, like, bring up those options, right, for green infrastructure because I normally hear them on, like, home landscapes. Right? Like, it's like, oh, make your driveway a permeable pavement or your pathways and things like that, or do these rain gardens. And you're talking about it on a community scale and also, like, the systemic planning piece of, like, if we use some spaces that are underutilized, like, let's increase the functionality of some of these spaces to improve stormwater resilience, right, and in like, beautify the community and add other value to it that of all the benefits that you mentioned. So there's this piece that goes it's not just, you know, what one space benefits from. It's these integration within all of them, which is so neat to think about.

Yeah. And I'm really struck by the trees when it comes back to, like, all the different benefits. In our last season, we had Justin Vozzo on to chat about kind of the urban forest and all the benefits that we gain from having increased trees in our communities and managing them properly. That's gonna be our next theme now. It's gonna be trees come back in each podcast episode. And how how just multipurpose and functional they are and just really, I think, easily overlooked and can be really undervalued a lot of the times, especially those mature trees, right, that we've had in our communities that have been there for decades that are kind of the first to go when new construction comes. Right? And it makes me so sad every time seeing those.

I was visiting, my cousin, and she lives in a an like, a new development neighborhood. And she was talking about composting, and her partner was talking about composting. And I was like, oh, yeah. You just, like, grab leaves. And I looked around, and I was like, you have no leaves in the fall because it's such a new development that there are none. And I was like, that's wild, like, that this is a like, you can't like, this she's like, she has no browns to work with. And so just like that idea. And there's some really great resources out there if you're looking for, like, how do I talk with my neighbors about planting trees or how do I talk with my local community about planting trees, the Chicago Region Trees Initiative, not just for Chicago. There's a lot of resources that apply throughout the state and in the region as well that can talk about, like, the benefits of trees. I know too, like, if you are in my neck of the woods, you can look up, like, your tree canopy percentages and things like that to find out what where where those levels are and and see because it's adding those stormwater benefits so immensely and and all of those other, like, social and health benefits as well. So definitely check out those resources on that site.

Yeah. For sure. So in talking about kind of that new development, right, that you mentioned, Abigail, we know that there's continued growth in our communities, of course. So how can communities kind of balance that need or drive for continued development with kind of the preservation of our natural water resources?

Yeah. So one of the concepts that comes out to me with this question is comprehensive watershed planning. And so this really can be expanded to other types of collaborative effort, but it really is critical to think about this lens, examining development through ecosystem services, accounting for the interconnected impacts of land use on water resources across watersheds, and also across communities and municipalities. So these types of watershed planning initiatives are often supported by nonprofit organizations or government agencies, and key to them is fostering collaboration among municipalities and other groups, interested parties. So these efforts do aim to create shared visions and coordinated strategies that align development goals with localized stormwater management and water resource protection.

The other concept that I wanna lift up to is a one water approach as a planning strategy, and so this emphasizes collaboration and partnership among water users to prepare for and balance multiple water needs within a community and a watershed. So by using these approaches, communities can recognize that their actions upstream, of course, will impact downstream and that we do need to work together. Also, communities are increasingly adopting proactive measures to safeguard water resources. For example, policies requiring developers to limit impervious surface coverage and conduct hydrological impact assessments for projects near waterways are now pretty common, and land use planning tools such as overlay districts and zoning regulations provide additional protection for water resources, ensuring that development will complement rather than disrupt natural systems. And communities are leveraging green infrastructure incentive programs to encourage things like water focused designs so municipalities can align economic motivations with ecological preservation by offering density bonuses, tax credit, expedited permitting, or reduced fees for projects that are exceeding stormwater management standards. And these incentives can make sustainable practices financially viable and attractive.

I'm remembering back, like, a lot of those kind of, like, municipal codes or zones can seem really frustrating and, like, annoying or even, like, unnecessary. But one of our state outreach associates, he was talking about, like, hey. Here's the reason why, like, certain height limits exist. Some of them are, like, a little extra, but, like, in site zones and things like that, they're necessary. And it makes me think of, like, when my in laws, they wanted to do an addition on the house, and they weren't allowed to expand beyond a certain point because a percentage of their property had to be permeable surface in that community.

So, when you put foundation and a roof over it, right, that's now impermeable, surface that's gonna all run into a space. And so he had to come up with solutions, especially because he's right near a creek as well. And so, like, having more of that runoff, things like that. So it makes us think about, like, why does this certain regulation, this certain thing exist in the first place that won't allow me to do what I wanna do? There might be a reason bigger than the city just doesn't want you to have a big house. Right? Because there are there are certain pieces that the community has to think of on a whole, like you said, like, level. It's not just your property. Water doesn't care about your property lines. It's gonna go to the path of least resistance and the quickest path that it can find. I did have a question for you, Kara. Can you talk a little bit more about this one water concept?

Sure. So one water planning strategy, it does very much foster collaboration, and it's thinking through, you can think about it at a municipal scale, or a watershed scale. But a lot of it  is applied more to the municipal scale. So working across different types of agencies and you're setting up, you know, your shared vision, your mission, your goals, and things like that so that you do have a shared management vision across your different users for One Water. We do have an Extension publication on that, and, hopefully, folks can get access to that. It talks a little bit more in-depth about some of the different ways that some communities, have applied this approach. It is very much a collaborative effort.

Great. We'll definitely share that in the show note and on the accompanying blog because we can't all have the expertise in everything. Right? So we have these different areas of expertise within communities that all address certain specific aspects because it's it's beneficial, but how are we communicating across those? Because, like you said, we all have the same goal. We all have one water. And so this idea of a structured approach and, like, this mindset, this lens in which we're approaching this issue is really great. Awesome. So when we're thinking about bringing all these people together when it comes to our water and addressing water management and things like that, how important is community involvement and education in the success of water management initiatives?

This is an incredibly important concept and effort. So effective water management is very collaborative and should be community centered and, involving a lot of different perspectives and people, because we all use water in some way, shape, or form. Public involvement and education are really essential to that aspect then for fostering a deeper understanding of water systems and also empowering training, educating folks on how to contribute to sustainable solutions. And education programs can also play a pivotal role in demystifying water systems because they can be complicated. By helping individuals understand a water's journey from rainfall to tap and back to the ecosystem, programs can inspire people to become educators within their communities too.

So for example, we have the rainscaping education program that's offered by Purdue Extension, University of Illinois Extension, and Illinois Indiana Sea Grant, and this exemplifies this approach. We provide hands on training to design and implement solutions like rain gardens, which capture and filter stormwater, of course. And participants are also equipped to support local rain garden outreach programs, once they're trained in this effort. Another component then are community science initiatives, which invite participants to directly engage in water resources management effort, and these types of projects combine local knowledge with scientific methodologies. And another great program example we have is the Illinois Indiana Water Stewards Program. This is a newer effort, and we train participants to identify local watershed challenges and implement practical conservation strategies with community partners. And it's another program that we're also jointly offering now with Purdue Extension, University of Illinois Extension, and Illinois Indiana Sea Grant. So across the board, these local workshops, school programs, and community science projects play a really important role in translating abstract concepts into actionable steps. And I think that's the most important thing to take away here, that we want to help community members make informed decisions and take meaningful action.

Yeah. For sure. And there's lots of those opportunities. Right? I know I helped lead a rainscaping workshop five years ago. It's been a long time, but really cool opportunity. And then getting the chance to, like, actually install a rain garden and do the build together with the participants was really I don't know. That hands on learning, I think, helps really break things down and make it to where it's not just things you're hearing about in a lecture or reading in a textbook, but actually doing the physical work makes it seem a lot more achievable, I think, in helping go through that process. And I know, Abigail, you've done rainscaping as well in your communities.

Yeah. We did ours a little bit differently. We didn't do the community install. We did each individual created their own personalized rain garden plan. So they basically were like, I wanna put a rain garden on my property or some kind. And some of them learned too, which is great, is, like, is a rain garden a good fit, or is it maybe a native planting or other great infrastructure solutions? Or and we and this is what I like about program too is it looks at all pieces too. Like, it looks at the planting installations as kind of, like, the central zone, but we talk about how they need to work in tandem with other things. Like, where is the water going? What are the best solutions that work with that? And so thinking about it on that system scale even just within your own property is really neat. And we had a lot I mean, a lot of people felt, like, the low reviews of that were like, wow. I can do this. I can install a rain garden. I didn't just walk away being like, what can I do? I I have no excuse not to do it anymore. And so that was pretty cool.

And the watershed stewards program is really, really neat. I was involved in the development of that, and one of our colleagues, Peggy Anesi, longtime friend of the pod, has implemented that in Illinois, and Indiana has had it for several years as well. And just having that on the ground learning and what I love about both of those programs is you get to see, like, the community pieces. You get to see what is being done in your community about watersheds, about watershed health, what is being done in your community with rain garden installations and things like that. So you get to hear from local communities. You get to see rain gardens in your local community. You get to see local watershed action and projects and and talk to people who are doing that work, which is really, really empowering because you're like, wow. Okay. Like and especially at a time when I feel like in the natural resources world, the environmental science world, you can feel a little down on the things that are happening and the way our climate is going. But I think that's the best medicine is, like, going out and talking to people who are doing awesome things because it just gives you a lot of energy to go also do awesome things, and I think we all need that a little bit in our life. Didn't know you all would get a motivational speech from this podcast today, huh?

I love it. That's great. You mentioned climate, Abigail, so that kinda is a great segue. I love segue for a question. Kara, what role does climate change play in our water resource planning for sustainable communities? And then kind of with that, how can communities kind of prep for and mitigate the impacts of the extreme weather events that we're experiencing?

Right. So this is a big one that we're facing in multiple ways and levels. Right? So, you know, we know climate change introduces a lot of variability in our weather patterns, and we have, more frequent and intense storms, prolonged droughts, and unpredictable precipitation. Our traditional water management systems, which were designed more for the historical norms, are becoming more ill equipped to handle these extremes. Future systems then we have that we have to build and adapt, need more flexibility and resilience to manage this uncertainty. Also, the changes in rainfall distribution challenge existing infrastructure. We see that we're increasing the risk of flooding in some regions and water scarcity in others, and these shifts really necessitate adaptive infrastructure that manages excess water during storms and then sustain supply during dry periods too. We really do need both now.

Kara, those systems built for, like, the average, we we like homeostasis. Right? Like, we like things to stay same, but the way that we're seeing these changing weather patterns is, like, we're gonna see extremes. So we can't just build systems for the average anymore. We kind of have to figure out what is the extremes and build within those boundaries as opposed to being like, well, as long as it stays right here, like, that's not where we live anymore. And that's really difficult to do.

Yeah. So address that, we really need to think about integrated stormwater management. So, with this emphasis is placed on updating infrastructure, carefully selecting and installing appropriate green infrastructure solutions for specific site conditions, and conserving natural areas to maximize flood control and improve water quality. So, for example, infrastructure needs to be designed to anticipate these extreme weather events that you were talking about and incorporating features like enhanced drainage systems, expanded stormwater retention basins to think about that those ebbs and flows, and distributed systems reduce reliance on single infrastructure points. So think about green infrastructure. We wanna enhance redundancy and minimize vulnerabilities. So we want to have rain gardens, bioswales, and green roofs that manage stormwater locally while improve water quality like we're seeing in in all these other processes too. We also wanna protect natural features like forestlands and riparian areas as much as possible, which helps keep intact our natural hydrologic systems. This is a very effective strategy, of course, for managing extreme weather events if we have the natural features in place.

Another thing that I wanna mention too on the community side and the planning side is creating a robust emergency response plan. So this is really essential for communities to build resilience to extreme weather events. The plans need to outline rapid deployment of resources, coordination, and collaboration across agencies, which is a common theme we're hearing and seeing, right, and integration of community based responses to minimize disruptions when we have a crisis. One program I want to lift up or network is the Extension Disaster Education Network or EDEN, e d e n. This is a collaborative national effort that works to reduce the impact of disasters through resource based education. And this is a program familiar to those of us in Extension. Illinois and Indiana both have EDEN programs too that we support.

One of the areas of support that this network also offers is through education, training, and resources for setting up community organizations active in disasters, also known as COADs. These COADs strengthen area wide disaster coordination by promoting planning to reduce the impact of disasters, including facilitating communication, coordination, collaboration, cooperation, all the c's. So connect with local Extension or visit the EDEN website to learn more about these important resources. The main takeaway that I want folks to think about too, is that water resource planning in the face of climate change is very collaborative. We really very much need the combination of scientific innovation, community involvement, and forward looking proactive policy to address it.

We can't just rely on one of those for sure because you need the local community to have that expertise of, like, where things are, what is needed, where the almost, like, pain points are. I feel like local communities are really good at that, like, the on the ground people. And then that innovative technology, those innovative thinkers of, like, what are some creative solutions we can do that with? You mentioned a lot of, like, system that has a lot of duplicates or what's the word you used?

Redundancy. So

Redundancy.

Several different points rather than a single infrastructure point that can a distributed system. So it reduces that reliance on one main big point. So if you have things like infrastructure that's helping to disseminate some of the pressure, that can be helpful. And, again, this has to be very site specific and very appropriate for the situation.

Also noticing another theme that there's no magic solution that's gonna fit every space, every community. Right? Like, solutions even in just, like, my community versus Erin's community are gonna look really different. Even my community next door. Right? There's different water systems that exist there. There's different infrastructure, different hydrology. Things like that are all going to it's there's no one size fits all solution, but there is a good lens, which is collaboration, cooperation. What are the all the c's that you mentioned is a great lens for addressing some of these issues.

Thank you so much, Kara, for sharing your wonderful knowledge on community planning and just resiliency and stormwater and and all of the challenges that we'll be facing with water and and how we can address those.

Thank you for having me today.

Well, now we are going to finish today's episode with everyday observations where we highlight the mundane and normal of our environment that is actually really interesting. Erin, why don't you kick us off?

Sure. So on theme with our water podcast and kind of what we've talked about today, we had a lot of rain yesterday, a big rainstorm that came through. And I was driving on the highway and was going through kind of a bluff area, and there were waterfalls that were on the side of the road that had started, because of the amount of rain that we had. And it just kind of reminded me of the huge number of waterfalls that we have in southern Illinois, but they're intermittent waterfalls. So people will travel and come to see them, and they'll come in the middle of the summer when it's super dry and there's nothing flowing.

But at this time of the year, in the wintertime, and, you know, in the spring, of course, it's a great time to get out and hike, and you can kind of find these treasures that are not always flowing, but it's kind of a special treat when you do catch it at the right time. And you get to see these awesome waterfalls. I know that's something that we always go hiking and looking for in the spring, and it's really cool. So kinda wanted to highlight a good side of the water system and the rain that we get is kind of that natural wonder that we get to experience that's really, really fun.

Waterfalls are really interesting geologically because, like, they have that two different type of stone, like, rock that, like, that's eroded underneath that kinda caused that offshoot. Like, just looking at, like, why does that waterfall exist? What caused that this kind of, like, break in this point is really, really interesting to think about and and really cool. And you need, like, a waterfall watch that, like, notifies you're like, okay. I'm heading down today. I'm gonna go see the waterfall.

Anytime after a big rain, we're like, let's go now. Now is the day.

Awesome. Well, Kara, what is your everyday observation?

I recently got to visit a couple of cool sites with my family. Kankakee Sands Bison Viewing, which is in, like, north central Indiana, Newton County. So you can see a really cool prairie restoration project and a bison herd. It's a Nature Conservancy project and several other partners have been involved there. And then not too too far away, it's about, oh, I think forty five minutes or so, you can go see the sandhill cranes at Jasper Pulaski Fish and Wildlife Area, and they have a really great observation spot there. So having a little road trip and seeing those two things for the fall migration and then getting to see some bison were really cool.

I stand by this. I said it again in another podcast for one of my everyday observations. sandhill cranes are, like, wild. They're just wild animals. Wild in the sense to, like, just blow my mind because they're just so big. They they feel like dinosaurs, in my opinion. Like, they're, like, they're just, like, huge and just, like, out there. It's just crazy to me.

They are. And they sound so cool.

Yes. They're so cool. They're like I, like, stop what I'm doing anytime I see them. I'm like, oh my gosh. Stop. Everybody stop. There's a they're up there. We gotta see them. So that's awesome.

Definitely worth a little trip if you wanna take a little road trip to north central Indiana and see those two things. I recommend it.

Well, my everyday observation certainly may feel mundane. It's a little phenology. So I have just been looking. We've had just like a weird fall winter season. Up here, we recently had like a little, like, warm spout. It's really foggy. And then it was really cold right before that. It's getting cold again. And in the fall, we had, like, lilacs blooming for some reason and, like, hydrangeas blooming. It was really weird.

And so I'm just trying to, like, take stock of my garden and notice, like, what still has leaves and what's green. And not still has leaves in the sense of, like, like, oak trees, how they kinda keep their brown deader leaves, but, like, what's, like, green and still there? And I'm also based on looking them, I'm noticing it's a lot of my non native ones that were there before I before I moved in that, like, a lot like, the previous owners planted. I have a honeysuckle and a barberry that I'm looking to get rid of. I'm trying. I'm working on it. It's just, like, you know, a slow process. You know, barberries aren't green, but it still certainly looks fine for winter. And so and the honeysuckle as well. And so I'm just, like, looking at them, and I'm like, this is an adaptation and an advantage that this plant has over the other native species in my yard.

And it just kinda tells me a little bit more about the things that I have in my landscape and based on my knowledge of ecology and what should be there or what shouldn't. Just kind of more information, and and I think it's really interesting to just kinda look at it. What's in my own space? And what's green? What's not? Why ask those questions about it? So that's my observation today.

I love that. I have green native things in my garden still, Abigail. The alum root is still going strong. It's still green, the leaves. It's green.

You're 300 miles south.

I know. But Still, we had a cold spell, and it was real cold. But, no, it was definitely a crazy year. I had flowers still blooming in December. My purple poppy mallows bloomed again. This crazy I had butterfly milkweed, like, send up new green shoots, and I was like, what are you doing, silly? It's, like, not the right time of year for that. So it definitely was crazy. It'll be interesting to see what happens next year.

Yeah. They're sending the wrong message to the insects for sure. Like, I'm curious to see the studies in the next few years of, like, insect populations. I'd love love to see a study, this is very niche, of, like, impacts of these, like, late term blooms and shoots and things like that on their corresponding insect populations. Like, do they get confused. Or is there, like, daylight kind of recognition there that the insects themselves have I don't know. I'm just curious because I was just like, that would be confusing for me. What? There's normally not food at this time. That's why I go to sleep. You know? Alright.

Well, Kara, thank you again for coming on the podcast and chatting with us and nerding out with us and just giving us all this really wonderful information to discuss and to share with our audience. We really appreciate it.

Thank you. I appreciate you both. Thank you for having me, and this is a lot of fun.

Well, this has been another episode of the Everyday Environment podcast. Check out next week where we talk with Scott Kuykendall about water resources in northern Illinois. This podcast is a University of Illinois Extension production hosted and edited by Abigail Garofalo, Erin Garrett, and Amy Lefringhouse.

University of Illinois Extension.