Ep. 160 Spice up your holiday with these holiday spices | #GoodGrowing

Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with the University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today. We are gonna talk about all about holiday spices. Oh, they they you drink them, you eat them, they ooze down your throat, they warm your body that's full of that holiday flavor. And, you know, I'm not doing this by myself.

I'm joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Hello, Chris. I enjoyed that intro there. Yes. Very descriptive.

I I mean, this is I mean, that's how I I picture spices. They they like it's this warming sensation we get from a lot of these spices. They kinda start with the flavor, and they just kinda tingle all the way to your extremities. And I just I don't know. That's like what I think about when I think of spices.

Like, oh, yeah. It's kind of movement of sensation. Mhmm. Also, I do think of the Spice Girls. So that is another thing that goes through my head.

Should have got them on. You've been our special guest.

Oh, yes. We should have. Yes. They let's see. I'm I I know I would definitely probably be good fans friends with ginger spice because I think that's what I'm supposed to talk about today.

But I don't know any of the others. There's there's what? Ginger spice, baby spice, allspice, old spice. I am I making some of these up? Probably.

I'll take old spice. Oh, darn it. It's not Terry Crews?

May maybe now.

Okay. Should be. At this point in their life, might be. Oh, goodness. Well, know, Ken, I wanna just give an update on an article that you shared with me about Christmas trees.

And I did not realize this, that Christmas tree sales are up this year. And part of why they're crediting it crediting it is the fact that Taylor Swift announced that she was raised on a Christmas tree farm. Do you do remember sharing that article with me a few weeks ago? I do. That's crazy.

I didn't I the the economic reach of of this woman is just it's mind bending and boggling.

Power of celebrity.

No doubt. My goodness. NFL loves her, and now Christmas tree farmers are loving it. So, yeah, very I I had no idea.

You get her to say she's a fan of Good Growing. It's her favorite podcast.

I've been trying to get her on here, but still just get a busy signal every time I call that number, I think, is hers.

Line has been disconnected.

Yeah. Don't call again. Oh, yes. Well, then at least we can we can do some fun hashtags here for this podcast. Hashtag spice girls, hashtag Taylor Swift.

So we'll we'll get all kinds of new audience members today as we talk about holiday spices. So, Ken, I maybe we we we need to clarify because when we talk spices, and I think something to note is that ginger was named the herb of the year for 2023. But I've never thought of ginger as an herb. I think of it as a spice. So what's a spice?

So I think a little bit is going to depend on who's defining it. I think for most people and most definitions, it's going to be the roots, flowers, fruits, seeds or bark. Basically anything other than the leaves of a plant that would be considered a spice. Typically, they're going to be from the tropics, whereas herbs are going be leaves, usually more temperate regions. And usually with spices, we use them in small amounts, whereas herbs, you may use more of them when you're cooking.

That's probably more of the culinary definition than the I don't if there's actually a botanical definition for spices, but I think that's that's typically what it's meant by by spices. Everything by the leaves, small amounts, typically originating from the tropics.

Okay. Well and I guess also maybe it is our our European viewpoint upon which we were raised. But a lot of exploration was driven by spices. So Europeans going to the tropics seeking out these unique flavors that they could mix and match and everything from from drinks to baked goods to, you know, warm hot soups and dishes, things like that. So and and a lot of it involved Europeans meddling in the politics of those local indigenous tribes that were growing these and causing all kinds of problems.

So what do you know about spice trade and how it started?

Yes. Kind of the age of exploration. I think a large part, at least my understanding, was kicked off by the spice trade trying to find a shorter route to Southeast Asia and stuff where a lot of these spices are coming from. So Columbus trying to find a shorter route in quote unquote discovering America even though there's already people here and Vikings found it, you know, landed hundreds of years before. But and that kind of kicked everything off trying to find these shorter routes.

The Americas are discovered by Europeans. And then there's you've got wars being fought over control of the spice trades and and islands and stuff in in Southeast Asia and all of that.

And I I remember how this stuff is is was so valuable. It was Magellan's journey across around the world. I think he started with five ships, 250 sailors. And by the end of it, he had one ship, 18 sailors. But I think they brought in, like, tons of spices, and they considered that a successful voyage.

They lost hundreds of people. But successful voyage because they brought back tons of wealth when it comes to the spices that that came back to Europe from that trip.

Yeah. And kind of who whoever controlled the those sea passages and then those islands and stuff, they were rather wealthy because they couldn't bring this in. In a lot of cases, the the they cornered the markets on these so you can only get them from that one country and stuff and and made lots of people very wealthy.

Well and and all of the the different spices we'll talk about today, I know in in doing a little bit of reading, you know, they're the ones such as like peppermint. I think it's also cinnamon. Some of those, they were used as a currency. I think it it's even written in several old scripts from the Bible to to some other, oh, what's his name? Not Thorin.

Thorin Oakenshield from Lord of the Rings. Something the wise, something the I lost it. Anyway, well Some

guy back in the day.

Some old dude. And but but anyway, they use things like peppermint leaves to pay debts. And my woah. Considering how fast mint grows, I'd be really rich. So anyway, I guess, Ken, should we get started and dive into our very first spice for today, which is going to be one that I don't use that often, but I do have in my cupboard just in case I ever need it, nutmeg.

So how how do you do you do you use nutmeg, Ken? And how do you use it? And and yeah. What is it?

I think I think the only time we really use nutmeg is, like, desserts, pies, something like that. But she's using a lot in in baked goods, confections, potatoes and meats and sausages and other sauces and stuff used on vegetables. If you drink eggnog this time of year, that brown stuff they grate on top or sprinkle on top, that's going to be nutmeg. So so a lot of different things. Not so much for Americans or maybe Northern European descent, but more so probably Asia where this is this is gonna be native to and stuff like that.

It's gonna be a little more widely used.

Okay. And I know that there are there's actually two spices, you know. It's kind of like the the coriander and cilantro thing. And there there's actually two spices that can be derived from this. One of them being nutmeg and the other one is mace.

And I I feel like, or maybe it's just more of opinion, that they can kind of be used interchangeably, but, like, nutmeg seems to be more common. Mace is not as common, but they seem to have a similar flavor profile to me. But I I guess might be worth describing the difference between nutmeg and mace. So what what is the difference between these two types of spices?

Yeah. We can pop up a picture of what they look like here. So nutmeg is so you're you're gonna have a fruit that's gonna have this kind of fleshy coating on it. Kinda looks like a maybe a really small apple or or something like that. And then inside there is going to be your seed and it's going have this red kind of net like thing on it.

That's going be the mace. It's actually an arrow. So if you're not familiar with an arrow is, if you eat pomegranates, the fleshy part on the outside of the pomegranate seed that we're eating, that's going to be the arrow. So the the mace is going to be the arrow of the nutmeg. The nutmeg is going to be inside of the the nut.

So those would be dried out. The shell would be taken off and then, you know, the whole nutmeg would be sold and you would grate that or that's going to be ground up, into a powder, and use that way. Mace, again, it is from this. The mace for your self defense purposes is not going to be this is a different kind of mace so that's well, that's capsaicin or more pepper based. It's not the this is eating mace, not self defense mace.

This isn't blind you kind of mace or or not the mace that you you hit people with. So

That too. And then then looking at some you know, doing some background reading on this. Like the young husks, so those husks that you're taking off. I guess a better description may be kind of a little more like like a walnut. That husk goes a little bit thicker.

Mhmm. Used in marmalades, jellies, sweets, preserved foods, Malaysia, and West Java. So and I don't know if you'd ever find it in The United States. Probably a bigger city if you do, but in other parts of the world, it's the outer covering is used as well. Okay.

And I I guess when it comes to growing nutmeg, are we talking because I'm I I I get nutmeg confused with hazelnut a little bit because they're kind of like I feel like they become deployed around the same time of year. But hazelnut, I I guess I should clarify. Probably most of what we're buying at the grocery store is is a European hazelnut, which is a a tree. American also we also have the American hazelnut, which is a shrub. But so is nutmeg, is this a tree that we're we're pulling off the the fruit from that that grows in the tropics?

Yep. So this is gonna be a tropical evergreen tree, this is not something we are growing anywhere in The United States. Ah, yeah. So this is gonna produce a fruit. A lot of times the fruit will be cut off and collected that way or it can be dropped to the ground.

Again, from reading, one of the reasons they don't necessarily want it dropping to the ground is you increase chances of contamination as that husk breaks open and the seeds expose a lot of times. Or in many cases, they'll they'll cut that out of the tree. I collect and they'll they'll dry it and then go and and sell it. He's there as the the mace. And I've never had mace personally.

I think it's just a little more mild and sweeter compared to nutmeg. If anybody's ever used it, you can put that in the comments and correct us if we're wrong.

Yeah. Let us know how it tastes. I thought that I've used it before. Actually, I know I have. It's something that when I was growing up, it was always in our our spice cabinet for some reason.

I'm not sure why. My mom must have really liked it.

So I don't think I'd ever heard of it until we started doing this.

So when it comes to these trees, is this something do you know, Ken is it grown in an orchard setting? Like, you know, do they or do they go on are they climbing up and handpicking these out of the trees? I know kinda industrial autumn automization kind of you you get like a shaker. Sometimes you shake them, but then you have to catch them. Like you said, you don't want them to touch to become contaminated by landing on the ground.

So are these like orchards or are these trees growing out more like plantation style and almost naturalistic in the wild?

I think it's probably gonna be you know, nowadays, you probably got orchards or or stuff set up. I I wouldn't be surprised, you know, small scale. They've got them, you know, here and there. But I would think I don't know for sure, but I I would think it's probably gonna be a little more industrialized nowadays. And it probably was even when the Dutch and all of that were were in charge of it.

And we didn't we didn't even go into the Dutch and stuff and how they, you know, some of the atrocities that kind of went they inflicted on on people of these islands, these plants are native to. So when these are native to the to the Moluccas Islands, Spice Islands. So I think there's what, like 11 islands that these trees are native to, the Banda Islands. And the Dutch had control. The Portuguese had first kind of claimed these islands and were trying to control the trade.

Weren't terribly successful. Dutch pushed them out. And they started taking over the trade. At some point at one point, they completely wiped out most of the native islanders in that area. It was estimated there was 15,000 people there.

By the time the Dutch were done, there was about a 2,000 left, killed them, sold them into slavery, whatnot. But basically, that that allowed them to corner the market pretty much completely. They controlled all the islands except for the Island Of Run, which the English controlled. So in 1667, the English traded the Island Of Run to the Dutch, and the Dutch got the Island Of Manhattan. So and when that happened, the Dutch completely controlled the nutmeg trade and then the English got Manhattan and the rest is history.

Man. And probably for each one of these spices, we could dive into a tumultuous political past of atrocities and and horrible things that people with the color of skin I have did to to native populations that where these trees grew wild and native. So we'll try we'll try maybe to touch on each one of those, but I don't think we have time, Ken, to do a deep dive like we've done for our last couple of shows as, like, Poinsettia and Mistletoe because we have a lot more spices to get through to.

So We got 10 part.

10 parter here. We we might we might break this puppy up. I don't know. But our our next spice is is another one that I think has been credited as one of the oldest recorded spices in history, and that is cinnamon. Now cinnamon is something that I think it shocks a lot of people in terms of of what it actually is.

So a lot of us are used to the powdered cinnamon. Sometimes I mean, you've probably seen cinnamon sticks, but it's actually technically not a stick. What is cinnamon? Where does it come from?

Yeah. So sticks are I guess the the technical term or the trade term that would be quills is actually the bark of of these trees. So there's again, these are another tropical evergreen tree. They're native again to in Asia, India, stuff like that. And I think they found evidence of this being seven thousand plus years tracing back.

So I got a long long time. China, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, that part of the world is where it's gonna be native to. These are trees. But in commercial production, typically they're gonna be coppicing these. They're gonna come down at the the ground and that's gonna send off a bunch of shoots.

So they're growing these as shrubs instead. Let those those new shoots grow for a couple years. They'll harvest them. We could cut it back hard, send out new shoots. And I and I think from what I've read, typical commercial production on a on a plant usually lasts for ten or so years.

You figure you're constantly cutting that back. That's draining a lot of resources to regrow every time. So then they'll take these sticks, they'll peel off the outer bark. So it's kind of scrape that off and then they'll take that inner bark, they'll slice that and they'll peel that off of the branch. They'll then dry this out.

As it dries, it'll curl up and that produces those quills or those sticks that we're getting. You know, if they're nice and long and in good shape, we'll sell them whole. If they're broken, they're small, some way damaged, then those will be ground up, and sold as powdered cinnamon.

And and we're not talking just a singular cinnamon tree. Actually, there's hundreds of species that can be utilized as as part of harvesting cinnamon and and and and taking off that that delicate inner piece of bark that they're they're slicing off of those stems. And so I I I guess my question is, maybe you don't know this, Ken, because I don't know how deep the research went. Are there differences in cinnamon flavors depending upon the species that you get?

There is. So in in The US, there there's kind of two there's I think there's about 250 species or something like that of cinnamomum, which is the genus for this. And I think there's 10 or something like that. There's multiple different species that are raised for for eating. In The United States, there's there's two different types we typically are going to find.

Cassia cinnamon is one that I guess predominantly is what we're going to find. It's it's kind of a much more, intense flavor, that's much thicker. The sheets are are much thicker. We can we can pop a picture up comparing these two. And then there's, Cylon or I get quote unquote true cinnamon.

Also in some parts of the world, this is cinnamon and the stuff we eat in The United States, Casia, would be called Casia. So if you're traveling abroad, there there may be some differences in what people are calling this. But the the Cylon or the true cinnamon, it's much thinner. It's a much more I've I've never had this before. But from reading it, it's much more subtle, floral or citrusy notes to it apparently.

It's much thinner. So those quills, you're gonna have multiple sheets on it. It's gonna be easier to grind if you're gonna grind this at home. If you've ever tried grinding one of the cassia sticks, those are incredibly hard. You put in a coffee grinder, you're probably gonna tear it up or burn out your motor trying to do that.

So

Coffee grinder for Christmas then. Yep.

Yeah. So typically what most of the cinnamon that we're gonna be eating or people are gonna be familiar with at least in The United States, that's gonna be cassia. But you can also find caylon or juice cinnamon as well. There's also some of other types that are grown for eating. There's Indonesian cinnamon, Saigon cinnamon, Nepal cinnamon as well.

Okay.

And I think it's also important to note in the the processing of the cinnamon. I think a lot of people think of, you know, how things are done in The US when we harvest corn or soybeans. It's like a human never touches that. You know? It goes from the field to the track, to the combine, to the silo, to whatever processing facility goes to.

You turn it into to bacon or you turn it into Cheetos. I don't know what it turns into after that. And this goes into a bag like no human hand ever touches that stuff. With cinnamon, I mean, you have people that are slicing these things off by hand, that they're drying these things off by hand. They're they're organizing these things all by hand.

There's a lot of labor that's involved in this spice production. And it's not just cinnamon. Was all almost all of them we talk about today have the same labor inputs. Any comments on on that labor?

So it's a lot like a lot of specialty crops. You know, a lot of human labor, hand labor. So, like, I mean, most of you gotta scrape off that outer bark. Mhmm. I know where to use it.

So, yeah, a lot of a lot of labor. And I mean, a lot of these things are being grown in more impoverished parts of the world where labor is cheaper. So

Yeah. That's true. And well, I and I I guess, you know, mentioning where they're grown in the world, but there's all these different species. Do we have anything that we can grow here in Illinois perhaps? Is there any possibility of growing some type of a cinnamon tree here?

You could. You're gonna be bringing it inside. I don't know of any I mean, I haven't looked at all 250 species. I don't know if there's any Why not? Those are made to be cold hardy enough to grow outside.

Really any of these spices we're talking about, you could grow them in Illinois, but you're gonna ring them as a house plant. Take them out in the summer, bring them in. Don't well, some of them maybe even in the fall once it starts whispering when you're getting cold. You wanna bring Yeah.

Well, sounds like a fun experiment. I'm gonna I'm gonna do a little bit more reading and see if I can find a cinnamon tree I can grow. So I'm tired of my lemon tree, which has covered in thorns right now.

I think you can't find cinnamon. I did a little looking nutmeg. I bringing that extensive looking, I cannot find anywhere selling nutmeg. So that may be a little hard to get ahold of. But cinnamon, there are I have seen them for sale to many more specialty places before online.

Well, we've talked nutmeg, which is a fruit. We've talked cinnamon, which is actual bark from the stem. Now let's switch gears to clove, which is actually the bud, which the highest quality clove is an unopened bud, flower bud. So, Ken, when it comes to cloves, this is one that I have not used that much. I actually don't really like I don't know.

Clove to me is a little too spicy. Like, that that aroma is a little bit too much. Mhmm. But let's talk about clove, the spice. Where does it come from, and and how does it get to my table?

So a little a little goes a long way, like, all of these. So you're talking clove's gonna be the the flower of the plants. They're gonna be used in a lot of times in with cooking meats, pickling fruits, sometimes syrup, as well, perfumes, in a lot of cases. Now we've talked about it a little bit more later, but your orange pomadeers when you if you've got kids or as a kid.

Mhmm. I learned I learned that from you today.

You didn't have a deprived childhood like Cassandra.

Yeah. I was very deprived. Didn't make those.

But another tropical evergreen, Spice Islands is also where this is native to. Again, it's another one the Dutch kinda cornered the market on. Like, going as far as going around into other islands and and cutting down any clove tree they could find so they had control over it. And eventually, other nations were able to to get a hold of plants and then start growing them other elsewhere to kind of break that monopoly. But you had the Spice Islands, Madagascar, Mauritius, Tanzania, places in Africa that are also gonna grow.

Think Tanzania is responsible for about 80% of the world's clothes, so most of that has shifted over to Africa nowadays. I think specifically Zanzibar the Zanzibar region, Tanzania.

Well, I I watched an interesting video about cloves and and how they grow and and and the whole process there. It's quite interesting. These are big trees that people are climbing up into to harvest the buds. I mean, we're talking multiple stories that people have these really tall ladders, and that's all they have and some rope. They're climbing up in these huge trees, and they have to pull the buds off at just the right time.

Right? The as I mentioned, that the highest quality is right before that that bud opens into that flower. And because because of this, because it's it's a flower bud, a lot of it is harvested by hand to get the highest value from that that clove. So so from from from that point, after they're up in the trees and they're pulling it out of the tree, making sure not to destroy the bud or the you don't want the bud to fall off the stem that they've pulled out of the tree, Now they gotta dry it and grate it and and then they sell it. So it yes.

Lost my train of thought.

Sad. So another name for this would be Zanzibar redhead. So I think when those flowers start turning red, those stalks, that's when they pick it. And with this, again, my understanding is they don't all ripen or the flowers aren't all ready at the same time. So I I read somewhere they may pick the tree three to eight times, three to eight times.

So they're going up and down that tree, that same tree, and picking. So and obviously you get them too early, as you got to open up, again, that quality declines on. I think the window is only a couple days when those flowers are kind of at their peak before they open.

Well, I mean, I'm again, the labor involved in that, the the people that's a skilled labor to be able to climb a tree like that, and then to have that number of workers show up in the course of a day or two, that's boy, just thinking about that's probably why cloves are so expensive. Because cloves are it's a fairly expensive spice. When I go to the grocery store, that is one of the more expensive ones on the shelf, I think.

Mhmm. Yeah. I can't remember the last time I bought any.

I I like I said, I don't use them, but I do I do go I love going to the the spice aisle in the grocery store and being like looking at all the cool things on the the shelf there and like, oh, that's really expensive. I guess I'm just gonna figure out something else to flavor my food with.

You know, just buy them and figure out a recipe after you get it.

Oh, I've done that too.

Yeah. This looks cool. What can I make with this?

So primarily, again, once again, tropical kind of basis where this plant is grown, exported throughout the world, and we talked about cultivation, harvest. You referenced this, Ken. An orange pom pom what is that?

So, yeah, pomadeers are some kind of vessel that was used to, you know, filled with smelly things, good smelly things to protect against infections during times of pestilence and stuff back back in the day. And then it's morphed into orange pomadeers where you get an orange and you stick clothes into it and just hang it from a tree or use a potpourri or just let it sit there until it molds and gets gross and stuff. And and one thing I found was, there's a version, you know, you have a pomadeer, so it's made with orange, cloves, oils. If you tie a golden ribbon on it, it can be used as a recovery charm in witchcraft. You ever find yourself in Harry Potter world?

I

I do often. Yes. Save yourself. Interesting. Well, I I didn't realize cloves were the were that powerful.

And the orangeamenters, is that a holiday thing? Is is that we do is that, like, what people would do at Christmas time is they would stab an orange with these cloves and

Pretty sure.

Hang them up and okay. It wasn't like a all year thing.

At least when when I was a kid, that's when we did it.

Okay. During the holidays in school. I gotcha. I gotcha. Well, that's interesting.

I I swear I heard somewhere too that it does have like a if it's antifungal or antibacterial qualities, as as you mentioned, the people hold in long time ago with like soldiers would put them in their boots to prevent, like, I don't if you call it trench foot back then, but but rot of your feet for being in your boots for so long. And so I I I've heard of that. Even if your feet were rotten, they'd probably smell good a little bit.

So See, speaking of smelling good, I found something where third century BC Chinese emperors would make before you could address the emperor, you have to chew on clothes to freshen your breath.

See, I should make my kids do that to me. Yeah. Mhmm.

So another random one going back back to nutmeg. Was it if you hold have a nutmeg under your left armpit and you go somewhere? You do that to attract admirers or something? You know, back in the day.

Well, I'm not in the market now, but will it get us more views on our podcast? I'll try that maybe. Next episode, I'm gonna have a nutmeg under my armpit. Yeah. Left armpit.

Yeah.

Left armpit when attend before attending a social gathering as a way of attracting admirers. Very

good. Probably just like, is something wrong with your shoulder? And it strike strikes up a conversation. Maybe I can give cloves a try. You know, we'll we'll see if that that old holiday bonus comes through.

She never does because we don't get those.

And I guess I should explain clove. So the the name is clavis in Latin and clau in French, which means nail. So have you ever seen one of these? It kinda looks like a little nail.

Yes. I do. Their name. Mhmm. Well well, very interesting.

Well, the next spice on our list is is one that I think is often misunderstood as as I think maybe because of its name, maybe because marketing of other spice mixtures, but it's called allspice. And and now I think I have heard this where a company will mix together various spices and they call it allspice. But there is an actual solitary spice called allspice. And I think it it is very similar to what we've just talked about with cloves, and that it's it's a bud that's pulled off of a plant. Or it's at least is it a bud or is it a spent flower?

I'm I can't remember which it is. It's a green fruit. Green fruit. Okay. So it's after flowering has occurred, it's it's a fruit of that.

Okay. And and this is one that it was, again, I'm using air quotes for people who are listening, discovered by Columbus when he sailed over to the New World, and he thought that he found pepper. He thought this was the pepper plant. He's he's like, you know, egads, I have found pepper. Turns out it wasn't pepper.

It was a whole different type of spice, allspice. But I think he even misnamed it. The he called it the pimenta, which is Spanish for I think or at least derived from the word pepper. Mhmm.

Yeah. So it's called pimento. Mhmm. Like, maybe outside The United States, you may see it referred to as pimento. Okay.

Because anyhow, that fruit, that green fruit looks like a peppercorn. Again, if you're familiar with what peppercorns look like, it's kind of small round ball. Mhmm.

So allspice. This is kind of a new world tropical from that from this part of the world. Well, not Illinois, but South. And so when it comes to utilizing this, how how do people utilize Allspice? Is there particular baked goods, meats?

Where does it go into?

Yeah. So this is gonna be Caribbean, West Indies, Mexico, Central America is where this tree is native to. So and it's used a lot in Caribbean cuisine. So jerk seasoning, mole sauces, marinades, pickling stuff like that. There's even a sort of rum or liqueur, rum based liqueur used just made with allspice.

Yeah. And then here in The United States, primarily for desserts, apparently, Cincinnati style chili. This what gives allspices gives it its distinctive aroma and flavor. I've never had Cincinnati style chili, so can't comment on that. But if you have, let us know.

And so in terms of its harvest, this is, as as you mentioned, native to the The Caribbean. When it's harvest from the tree, I'm I'm guessing it is a kind of similar process and that it has to be dried, and then it's just shipped as as clove. However, the allspice in my pantry is a powdered allspice, And I I will say it's delicious. I love I do actually use it quite a bit on on seasonings, like jerk chicken. But even if I make, like, a curry, I like throwing a little bit of allspice in there.

It just kinda gives it a little bit more like that kinda body of flavoring. Yeah. Something extra. A little bit of something there. Yeah.

I don't know what it is. I just I just I really do like it. Yeah.

Yeah. So the the fruit we're do have these green fruit. You're they're picking those couple months after the the fruit is done or the flower is done. So it's been developing for a few months. They're still green.

They're not fully ripe. They're picking those yet, drying them out, picking out any fully ripe ones, and so on. That that drying time can take, it's usually for all these can be several days, that they're drying these out either on mats. Sometimes, for, like, all spice, they'll have kind of cement pads they'll do it on, and then bag those up and, you know, should the fruits, the whole fruits have longer shelf life, than powders. So that may be, one advantage to getting a whole whole fruit compared to a a powder if you're not gonna be using a lot of it.

Then you have to crush it up. So I think this is one you can find where you can find plants if you want to grow this. Let's say relatively easy, but places do sell these. It may be a little trying to think if this is one that's a little trickier to grow compared to some others. But, yeah, I guess for all these that we've talked about so far, they're ereworms house plants, you're bringing them in.

Typically, lot of these are gonna like temperatures, don't like them below sixties. So you're bringing these in much earlier in the year, lots of sun. Typically, most of them are gonna need well drained soils. So they like that moisture, but they don't like the heavier soil. So making sure you've got a lot of perlite or something in there to see a good drainage in your soils.

Again, these are all tropical, so high humidity is going to be important. So clustering plants, running a humidifier, something like that if if you wanted to attempt to grow any of these we've talked about so far.

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely humidity is an issue. Boy, I especially felt that recently with our cold snap and the heat furnace really picks on more often, dries that air out. But I I do do highly recommend clustering those plants together.

I think it it really does help a little bit in at least creating a micro climate of of humidity around them.

Yeah. Or like you do with it tends to do, like, with orchids where you have your tray with gravel and water in it. Just make sure your pots are elevated above that so they're not sitting in the water. Again, create a little bit of a higher humidity microclimate. Leave them in the bathroom.

Take nice hot showers.

Hot showers with your plants. I used to share a shower with an orchid, so it died. Turns out there was a lot of water getting in the pot that I didn't realize. So yeah. Well, okay.

Let's switch gears ever so slightly. We have talked about fruits, barks, buds. Let's talk leaves, which is kinda herby, but this is this next one is also like a quintessential holiday flavor, peppermint. So, Ken, what is peppermint, and how does this is this different from, like, a spearmint for all of us people who I I do my best to not grow mint for reasons that I'll tell about later. Yes.

Yeah. So this is a mint, so it's going to have the same challenges, potential drawbacks as other mints if you're if you do decide to grow this. So this is different than spearmint. So peppermint is actually a hybrid. It's a hybrid between, oh, what is it?

Watermint. Watermint. And spearmint.

So this is gonna have a higher Menthol. Regionals of those. So this is gonna have menthol contents that's kinda using that cooling sensation that we associate with menthol. Levels in it than than spearmint does. So you you have more of that minty Mhmm.

Flavor with it. So because this is a hybrid, you can't buy seeds. So if you do wanna grow this, you're gonna be getting plants. You're gonna do transplants. Where spearmint, you can buy seeds and plant those.

Telling them the difference between a peppermint is gonna have dark green leaves and reddish stems. Spearmint is gonna be lighter green, has have more pointed leaves as well. So your peppermint then our flowers are gonna be lavender kind of purplish while spearmints are gonna be pink.

See, thing about menthol that I just just learned about as I was framing before the show is that the chemical of menthol tricks your brain into thinking that it's feeling a cold sensation. You know, it's kind of that that coolness that you get when you maybe chew on a piece of mint gum or take a drink of something that has mint flavor in it, it it tricks the brain to think that it's experiencing something cold, which I found very interesting. So yes. Yeah.

So I think a lot of the spices do have the opposite effect. Those chemicals Mhmm. Kinda give you that that warming sensation.

That that warmth to your body that I talked Yeah. Yeah.

I I think there are some there are kind of cultivars even within peppermint, like the chocolate that's supposed to have kind of a chocolate taste to it. There's isn't there a lime or lemon one? It's supposed to have a lemon or lime citrus scent to it. I think there's an orange mint and stuff as well.

Yeah. I mean, there's there's a mint for every occasion. I had and it was lemon balm, which is a mint. You know, the telltale way you can describe a mint is that it has a square stem. And that square stem indicates that it is in the mint family, and that family was that Lamiaceae is the the mint family.

I don't know. Botanists change these things on me all the time. I didn't realize that maple trees are no longer in the Aceraceae family. That doesn't exist anymore. It's called the sapindaceae if you're curious.

Yeah. Yeah. News to me a few weeks ago. Anyway so, yeah, the Lambeaceae characteristic was square stems. And one of the the mints in the mint family, lemon balm, I had that.

Well, I didn't plant it in my yard. Someone else did. And it it will never leave. I'll always have lemon balm in my yard forever because it just grows and spreads like crazy.

Yeah. And, like, peppermint's hardy to zone three. If you grow it outside, it's not gonna winter kill. Yeah. So yeah.

Whenever we grow mince, it's it's in a pot because I do not wanna have to deal with those getting out of control. And

mince, as I think I mentioned at the top of the show, they have been used for a long time just like cinnamon. So they have found traces of both cinnamon and peppermint in the tombs of ancient pharaohs. And and actually, peppermint was so valuable back then that thieves would raid the tombs not to get the gold and all the other fancy metals that might be in there, but to get the peppermint that was stored in the those tombs with the with the bodies there. So it it has been around for a long time. It's been utilized from ancient Egypt, from medieval Europe, and it is a very, very popular flavoring today.

I think as far as I can tell in the limited reading, and I do not study the economics of peppermint that often, but I believe this is the most widely produced essential oil, peppermint, throughout the whole world. There's the the most popular, the most common essential oil is peppermint.

It's a lot of candy canes.

It really is. Yeah. Move

on to the the star of the show here.

No. Just just to me. It's just just my my best friend. So yeah. My my my second wife, her name's Ginger, and I I've been growing ginger for a long time, and I am I'm always growing ginger.

I always have a live ginger plant. I have had a live ginger plant somewhere in my house since 02/2017. And it's been it's been ups and downs of a relationship. But ginger, even though it was the herb of the year this this current year, I've always considered it a spice. However, you could use the leaves of ginger for flavoring teas and things like that.

So, I mean, you could technically maybe use part of the plant and be more herb like. But, really, we we harvest the rhizome of the plant, and that is where we get those that that ginger that that spicy zingy flavor for a lot of the dishes that we utilize. And when it comes to the holidays, a lot of the kind of the the Western European, English, so on, they really adopted ginger for teas, gingerbread, ginger cookies, ginger ale. A lot of those becoming more popular around this time of year as as people gather to celebrate, have these big meals and feasts with family and friends. And so ginger is I think that's kinda how it worked its way into the whole lexicon of the holidays with us.

And and and really gingerbread men, that's that's probably the most commonly thought use of ginger around the holidays.

More houses. Gingerbread houses.

Oh, yes. Yeah. And oh, yeah. We gotta build our still have to build our gingerbread house this year. So we're a little behind, it feels like.

So, Ken, I know I've gotten you on the ginger train. How did the ginger do this year? And do you have any ginger currently in your home? Do you use a lot of ginger?

I use a lot more ginger now than I used to.

I bet.

Yeah. So as I hear, we grow some again another row in the tunnel this year. I think we had 55 pounds Mhmm. Of it. So, yeah, another another good year I've got.

Box full of ginger at home. I made so some ginger cookies last week. Made some ginger syrup, make ginger ale. I haven't syrup's sitting on the refrigerator. I haven't got any club soda yet to to mix it with, but candied ginger.

I still have lots of ginger left.

It's very spicy. Oh. Yeah. And then you you get you take the sugar from your candied ginger, and then you can put that in your tea or whatever it is you wanna flavor, sweeten. Get a little ginger kick.

Yep. Maybe I'll that in a little baggy. My wife my wife used it since coffee and tea are gross. So maybe they'd be better with ginger in it. Maybe a lot to try.

I think so. Give it a try. At least tea. Tea is better with ginger. I don't know if coffee would be any better though.

Tea tastes like grass. Maybe that's why I like grass. I don't know. So ginger really hails from the tropics, as I said. Now when it comes to to ginger where where we know it, Hawaii actually used to be the biggest producer of ginger.

But then they got this little bacterial wilt in their soil that totally mixed growing ginger basically throughout the whole state of Hawaii. Their soil is all infected with bacterial wilt, which makes it impossible to grow ginger in the ground. And so we still do get, like so if you wanted to grow ginger here in Illinois, you can order ginger seed pieces from Hawaii, but those are all grown hydroponically. None of them are necessarily grown in the ground. Actually, they they very actively avoid putting the ginger anywhere near soil, places like that.

But you can grow it here in Illinois. Just like everything else we've talked about, it is a house plant, essentially. You bring it outside in the summer, and then you have to bring it in once it starts any risk of of freeze is getting close. You gotta bring it inside. And ginger is actually has a dormancy period, so it does that's part of its life cycle is it has to go dormant.

And so very often, that that will happen happen with me. The plants just all turn brown, and then they just go to sleep for about a month or two. And then I put them on a heat mat or I start watering again, and that perks them up. And it takes a long time for them to sprout, about a month to almost two months for some occasions that has taken for ginger to resprout in in my basement. But but in India, where most of today's ginger is grown, that's that's sold here in The US, It it is planted in February, grows up until December when it goes dormant, and they harvest it, process it, ship it out to The US.

Then they get ready to plant in January, get the ginger rhizomes in the ground in February, and they start the process all over again.

Have you grown any of your ginger long enough to flower? Kept it that long?

Yes. But I've not seen the flower. So the flower usually occurs in late September, more often in October, but the flower is the trigger for dormancy. So you know that when you see that ginger begin to flower, that about a month and a half later, the plant will leaves will start to turn brown. I've never made it that far because by the time it flowers, it's freezing outside, and I gotta harvest the plant and get it where it won't freeze.

Because if they do freeze, if the rhizomes do freeze, they turn to mush and they're no good.

We'd experiment for next year.

Yeah. I would love to

Put under lights.

Put it under lights. I'd love to do this in a greenhouse. Give it, like, a long term, like, a full season of growth. I just don't have a greenhouse yet, Ken. I'm still working on that that greenhouse.

Well, that was a lot of great information about spices that we love to use around the holidays. Really Good Growing podcast is a production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by me, Chris Enroth. A special thank you to Ken Johnson for once again showing up with a head packed full of knowledge about these things. So thank you so much, Ken, for once again just schooling me and and and talking about schooling me in a in a good way. I guess schooling might be more more of a bad thing, but but I feel I feel enlightened.

Thank you, Ken, so much for being here today.

You're welcome. It's all starting to leak out already. It's

What's a good thing we're about?

Okay. And let's do this again next week, maybe.

Oh, I don't know if we will do this again next week. Ken, we have to take a vacation because it's like the holidays and stuff. So I suppose we are gonna be doing a couple short garden bites for the next few weeks, which I think are just as fun and exciting as doing deep dives into whatever topic we feel like studying an hour before the show starts. So listeners, thank you for doing what you do best and that is listening or if you're watching this on YouTube watching. And as always, keep on growing.