Welcome to the Good Growing Podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with the University of Illinois Extension, coming at you from Mac Home, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today, dogwood, the genus known as Cornus. We are going to be diving into this particular tree slash shrub, and you know I'm not doing this by myself. I am joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Hello, Chris. Thanks for letting me on me beyond even though we're talking about trees.

Ken, there's always room in life for growth. So here you go into the highest living forms on this planet are trees. I'm happy to have you here with us today. And you know we have to have an actual tree person here because it's not Ken. It's not me.

It's Oracle Edge Educator, Emily Swihart. Mylan. Hey, Emily. How's it going?

Hi, guys. It's going well. We were visiting before this, and I'm feeling less confident that I'm the right tree person for this. But, I'm very happy to be here, so we'll have some fun, if nothing else.

Exactly. We're happy to have you. And as we were discussing this, we're realizing, holy cow, there's a lot of dogwoods out there, and there's a lot of information about dogwoods. So maybe consider this episode a surface level because Preview. The preview.

And I I think if folks have questions or if they want more information, we can really dive more into particular species, because there's just around the world, there is a lot of different types of dogwoods out there. It's very popular landscape trees, so there's a lot of cultivars and, that that are also out there marketed. And I I feel like if we would start remarking on cultivars, we might be out of date by tomorrow. So, you know, we don't know what's gonna be in the garden center this spring.

Yeah. And and there's a lot that grow really well in our region. Right? So they it's popular, but there's different forms and different, varieties. And so there's just kind of a lot to cover.

So, yeah.

Yes. We're

just Yeah. Starting the conversation.

But I would say probably one of the maybe better ways to divvy this particular genus of plants, into 2 parts is, 1, we have shrub forms, and the other half, we have tree forms. So let's start with the shorter guys out there, our dogwood shrubs. And of those different species, I know one that is, in my mind, more tree like, but still considered a shrub is the gray dogwood. Now, Emily, in terms of experience with gray dogwood, have you had an experience with this one as either a tree or shrub form? Because I have more of a tree in my yard.

Yeah. So my experience with gray dogwood comes from more of my natural resource background and, you know, endeavors. So it's not the most elegant, the most showy, the most, cultivated of the the dogwoods. I guess we should say it's, great dogwood is, cornus rasmosa. And, this one is it's probably the most tolerant.

It's the least fickle of the dogwoods. There are a few quirks that some of the other, species have that do limit, where you can grow them. Not a lot, but it's it is worth paying attention to your site, of course. And so gray dogwood, I see it like naturalizing spaces. It does that really well.

It can kind of colonize. I've seen it advertised or promoted as being, something you could do as a hedge. I see it a lot in landscapes that are not as highly managed or as highly cultivated, if you will. So one of the reasons I see that too is because it is more tolerant of a wider variety of, landscapes. And so some of our in some of the literature, we'll talk about this.

Some of them say, you know, it likes well drained, moist soils, but not too wet. Otherwise, you know, you gotta kinda stay in that that middle of the the moisture range. Some of our other dogwoods prefer a higher pH, which is, sometimes harder to find in the Midwest. Now gray dogwood can expand the spectrum for both of those pH range and moisture tolerance, both from a wetness standpoint. So it can tolerate, I've seen it in like areas that have intermittent flooding.

And then it can be in like more upland areas that have dryer conditions. So, more wide range from a growth standpoint, but it gets huge. It can get can be a very large shrub. We were debating whether it was a tree or a shrub. I call it a shrub.

It's just a very large shrub. It never gets that like singular trunk. It would take a lot of work to prune it into a tree form. And so this is more shrub like. But it does offer white flowers and white fruit, that wildlife take advantage of.

And so, if you do have kind of a back forty area or a, a large space in your landscape to fill, you know, gray dogwood might be one of the, the dogwoods you can consider.

I I do like mine. It it's it's bigger, but it does fill in kind of an interesting space. Kind of as you described, Emily, it is in a very flat part of my yard that has very poor drainage, and I often wonder, where does all that water go? Because it's not flowing off of the site. It is sited underneath a giant pin oak, which is absorbing a lot of that water.

But still, after rains, that area just remains, you know, very soggy. And, it it it really likes it. It's filling in that understory of that pin oak as the pin oak very in in a very poor fashion. Pin oaks don't do a good job at shedding their lower limbs, but it the limbs are dead. And the gray dog was kinda filling in this mid canopy area, underneath this pin oak.

So I really like it. I usually miss the flowers. I'm like out of a town out of town for the weekend, and they're pretty quick, short lived. And I think I've only seen them once. But I do get to go out and I watch it for the fruit, and the birds do clean that off pretty quickly once the fruit's ready.

Yeah. I'll also say with some of these shrubs, with some of these dogwood shrubs, so some have higher tannin content, in their, leaf in their, twig material, and so they're less desirable for deer. Some do get browsed. All of these, I would say, I've seen, like, rabbits and squirrels chew on them. And then one of the benefits of something like a gray dogwood that colonizes is that you don't even notice, really.

Like, it will put up more, growth. And so if you do lose some in the in the winter, it's not like the whole tree is shot. Like, it just fills back in. And, and those those flowers are not as showy, not as robust as some of the other ones we're gonna talk about. And so that's not, I don't consider this like a front yard plant.

It's more of a backyard plant, but from a wildlife value. It's worth having.

I agree. Yeah. I really like it. And in terms of maintenance, it's just pruning those suckers that you don't want in certain spots and encouraging those in other spots to form that hedge and then pruning any limbs that hits you while you're mowing or getting the way of anything. It's just it's pruning.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. Okay. So that was we kinda started maybe with our least flashy of the cornice. Why don't we move on to one that folks probably will be familiar with or have seen? And if they haven't seen, they will after they're aware of it because it's, it's popular and it's, showy and it is called the rhodosier dogwood.

Mhmm. Right?

Yeah. The the fancy stems. Now even if you don't see these in the landscape, I guarantee you've seen these in, like, floral arrangements because people love to use these in, like, the fall and the winter for flower arranging. And and these next few dogs that we're gonna talk about, they do a spectacular job of having usually red colored stems, in the fall and winter months.

Yeah. So redogered and I'll put a picture in here. I saw this picture is from St. Louis and they use it in one of their in city was it the city garden? Is that what it's called?

Right downtown. This is this is a plant worth, having a prominent place in the landscape because of those red stems. I have 3 in my front yard. My neighbor has them. So it's versatile.

I'm trying to demonstrate that this is a versatile plant that can can be put into a lot of places. So we have it in Saint Louis in, like, in a highly visible, highly trafficked, city park. I've got it in just my front yard. I chose it to put out there. It's like one of the first things you see as you approach the house.

And then my neighbors, since I live in the country, has it on the exterior, side of his windbreak and it kind of provides that lower level, that first layer of the windbreak. And so it's a really versatile plant. It's, it looks really nice, but it's durable. To keep those red twigs, you do do some pruning. There's some maintenance activities that are required.

And if you wanna maintain that red twig, if you don't, if you don't do the maintenance work of pruning out the, older twigs, you just you'll have a nice plant. It'll it'll continue to thrive. It just will not have that red, twig color because that is on the newer growth, about 3 years or less. And just doing, some of these, you know, renewal pruning cuts, you know, from time to time, every 3 years or so, we'll keep you having that, that kind of robust red red color. There's also yellow ones.

There's also yellow twigs. It's not as popular, and I bring it up later in the conversation because I don't really like them personally. But that's not what this is about, but there's I don't know. Do you have an

opinion?

I I I don't necessarily have an opinion. I I do like the red twigs because they're a bit more reliable. From what I've heard, the yellow ones are not as reliably, colored, a bit more finicky.

Yeah. I've I've planted both and the rabbits took care of them for me. So

oh, the bunnies.

Yeah. To do the rejuvenation cuts, and honestly, I get people plan what you want. Ignore my comments and my opinions. They don't matter for anything. They're both they're lovely.

But, yes, the yellow is a little more finicky. From the red, the rejuvenation cuts, they are pretty forgiving. My neighbor, a couple years ago, went and just, so it's on his windbreak. Right? This is not a landscape he's putting a lot of investment into, like, maintaining, but they were getting out of control and needed to be, have some rejuvenation done.

And just the whole line of them. Took them all out at about a foot above the ground. Generally, what we would recommend is just pruning to the ground, but he took them out, a little higher. And 2 years later, they're huge and stunning and bright red, which is really lovely against, like, a fresh fallen snow, And that green dark background of the white pines that he's got there. So, it's an option, I guess.

I I wanna bring that up because it's this is just a maintenance choice people would have if they have a red red twig dogwood. You can do it every year, some every year, or you could do it, you know, just kind of like all in one shot and then have a smaller shrub that first year, a little larger shrub that second year. Kind of depending on what you would, what you would want to do. This one's also a little more tolerant of different moisture levels. And so I think that's also helped contribute to its popularity.

Not quite as large as gray. Still pretty big. It can get pretty big. 7 to 9 feet, I would say. So that's a sizable plant in the landscape.

I I have I I don't know what exactly it is, because this was planted in my yard before I lived in this house. But I believe it is a sericiarra, redosha dogwood. It's variegated. Doesn't get the red stems, though, but has really nice variegated foliage. And it looks particularly stunning where it's, sited.

It's near a downspout of my house, and there's other hydrangeas. There's some ferns. It's in a more shady type area, and it performs really well. That variegation, that white coloration of the leaves adds a little bit more brightness to a a dark corner, along my house. So I I really do like it.

And even though I don't know what it is, I don't plan on replacing it because it's it has performed really well, and it just brightens up an area. So not only do they have the red stems, there are a couple cultivars out there that have variegation of their foliage. And I I I do love it. You can overdo it, so be careful. It's a a forewarning to don't overdo your variegated foliage because then

it gets wild and crazy. Look really wild.

Yes.

Alright. So similar just out I will note, that there is another red twig, and we talked about this a little bit earlier, but it is, not native. So, cystica is native to, Illinois. This one's not, but it also has red twigs, and, it is called blood twig dogwood. This one's native to Europe.

So if you do traveling, it's kinda hard to I don't know if I've ever seen it in the nursery industry here. I think it, has more limited fall color. So we didn't even say, about the fall color of red twig dogwood, which is bright red. Really, it's a nice the foliage we'll talk about a few, issues that it could potentially develop. But for the most part, I think it it is a nice foliage throughout the season, but then it turns red.

But this, Cornus sangria is it I I saw it, and I don't maybe you guys saw something different that it, the fall color is not quite as desirable, which would mean the market value of it in the Midwest or in the United States just isn't can't compete with red twig dogwood. So

Yeah. I I I see kind of a darker fall color to that one. Typically, deeper tones

Mhmm.

Not as bright red. Yeah. Maybe more purple like. More purpley. Yeah.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Another one out there, shrub dogwood is, Cornus alba, and this is another one that has red stems. It's a little bit shorter, than the ones we've talked about. And but but, again, it it it follows much of the same traits and patterns as as as the other ones we've just described. And as Emily said, even it's it's short. But even if you don't prune it, you still get a really nice habit with these with these, shrubby dogwoods.

I think cornicealba is one of those that has a really nice mounded habit to it. And again, red coloration of the stems. And we might maybe we should even mention there's silky dogwood, which is very wild dogwood out that grows out wild in, prairies in Illinois and in the Great Plains. So it's there's, another very common dogwood you might find on the edge of your woods. Alright.

So we've described a little bit about these shrub dogwoods, but what happens if you are someone walking along and you come across a plant and you wanna know if it's a dogwood or not? How do you tell the difference between a dogwood and some other plant? Emily, do you have any identification tips for us?

Yeah. And that's a really good point to bring up that we should talk about identification. So they're first hard to identify. Some of these look very similar to other ones, especially in out in nature where they haven't been cultivated and we don't have, you know, prominent features to identify them with. So first, if you're struggling, that's okay.

But to narrow it down, even to the, like, the cornice, genus, one thing that is a little bit unusual in, the plant world would be the opposite leaf arrangement. And so most plants, I I I think most plants, that's maybe a subjective term, but would have, alternate. So if it's opposite, which means it leaves right across from each other, you can narrow it down, to a few different native, genuses. Dogwood being one of them. And then the leaves have a really interesting, venation.

Can do you want to do you wanna describe it?

So they have the the arcuate. So there's your vocabulary for the day. So you got this the strong midrib and your secondary veins coming out. They kind of curve as they reach the margins, curve up. So there you go.

I I think a lot of times when I see them, looks like the secondary of the engine was sunken a little bit too. So at least on some of the dogwoods.

Yeah. I'll try to put a picture in here if we can find one. It's distinct. Once you know, once you kind of like recognize it, I think people will start seeing it and and seeing it as a dog would because there's not a lot else that it reminds me of. So, yep.

Thanks for the vocab. That's fun. People are learning. Right?

I'm curious. What what memory device did you use to memorize opposite plants, opposite trees? Do you remember? Do you still have that in your head? Okay.

I roll. Do.

Okay.

Okay. So mine, they were for native plants. Right? So these are not non native. It was mad bucking horse.

So, maple, ash, dogwood, horse chestnut, and buckeye. So buckeye and then horse chestnut.

Mhmm.

And so do you have one?

It was madcap horse. So the cap was Capripholiaceae

Yep. Family. Yep. Mhmm. Yeah.

Ken, what was yours for memorizing?

Erase that from my memory.

Replaced with bug facts.

I would say you probably have something about insects.

Yeah. I don't know if I do or not.

Okay.

I'll have to think about that.

So those okay. While you're thinking about that, so those are the leaves. The flowers on the shrubs are, different than on the trees that we'll talk about here. And so we've got some pictures of both and you'll see, how they are. They're distinctly different.

The flowers on the shrubs almost always are in, like, compound clusters. They're in tight little clusters. A lot of times there, kind of like a panicle, humble arrangement to give easy access to insects for pollination or wildlife, for pollination because they are animal pollinated. They are not as showy. So there's, bracts that are around the flowers on the trees that are really large and pronounced, and we will generally say, like, oh, that's the flower.

Similar to what we do for poinsettias. They're actually modified leaves. Those are just not as showy, not as pronounced, on the shrubs. And so, a little more delicate. More of them, I would guess, because they're smaller on the shrubs.

I've never counted, but I would just and there's a lot on some of these flowering trees, but, this really small kind of, clusters of flowers. Different colors, mostly white, but some different cultivars have pinks and reds. Yeah. But mostly white would be what you'd naturally find.

Should we dive into our dogwood trees next? Kicking off with perhaps maybe one of the most beloved dogwoods out there, the flowering dogwood or cornice, Florida, which is another one I have in my yard. So I have a gray dogwood. I have some kind of variegated shrub dogwood. I don't know what it is.

Probably sericea. And then I do know for a fact that I have flowering dogwood. What variety or cultivar, I have no idea. It is a red flower or bracted type. So it it it is red.

That's all I know. And I know it's of of cornus florida. And I have it's one of my favorite trees in my yard. It is a favorite. Now in terms of culture of this one, I know that flowering dogwoods can survive and are tolerant of a lot of different conditions.

However, I feel like they're also very shallow rooted, and you have to protect that root system from drying out, getting sopping wet. And so a nice mulch layer for my dogwood when when we bought the house, the dogwood was kinda puny looking. What I did to try to revitalize it was some some good pruning, effective pruning, and then a nice wide mulch layer. It's really seemed to benefit this dogwood. And the way that I prune this is I let all of the limbs hang down.

Even if I get my eyes gouged out when I'm mowing, it doesn't matter. I love this tree so much. Even if I could just touch the alligator like bark, when I can't see as an old person, that will that will be just divine to me. I love this tree. It is my favorite, and I keep getting told to prune the limbs and to prune it away from the road.

And I say, no. I won't do it. Does anybody else like, flowering dogwood other than me?

I like it. I don't know if I like it to that extent.

But Yeah. Come on.

I don't know if I've checked in this and

I. But

I think there's somebody else out there who likes dogwood just as much as I do.

Yes. It's a stunning tree. It is it is beautiful. Like, it we'll put in some pictures here. And I just flipped through, one of our most, you know, beloved Emmanuel Woody of Landscape Plants books.

And there are 4 and a half pages of Cultivart listed. And this is you know, and it's expanding. So, which flower color do you have?

So my red. Reddish pink. Right. I I and I don't know. Yeah.

Okay. One of those in that four pages of, on d'oeuvres. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's those like, again, those are those bracts actually around those little flower clusters, and they last for a really long time. I don't know if you've ever kinda like documented how long they last, but that's one of the appealing things about, the dogwoods in general, but the, you know, flowering dogwood is they these the bracts, we'll call them flowers, can last up to a month. Like, other spring blooming, you know, trees just don't have a a show that long, and it is it's profound. Like, they're so they're large, you know, like 2 to 2 to 4 inches, I would say.

Generally, like, then there's so many of them, and they usually emerge before the leaves, come out. So it's just this this stunning display of colors. And so, and they go from white. That's why I asked about your color because they their cultivars go from, like, white to light pink. There's a little variegation sometimes available, to like a true pink, you know, rose, magenta, deep, you know, deep kind of burgundy, reddish, hues.

So you can really kind of customize what what you like. So, I'm jealous. I don't have it in my landscape, and I honestly maybe need to add 1 or 2 or 4. I don't know. I've got some space, so I could

Don't stop it.

I could get all the colors, all of the cultivars. No.

Very good at least. Dogwoods.

I think one thing for for, flowering dogwood to remember is just like an understory edge of the forest. So, you know, we plant them in full sun a lot. Like like Chris mentioned, they're shallow rooted. And if you don't have consistent moisture, they're gonna struggle. So keep keep that in mind when you're siting it.

If you're if you can give them maybe a little shade, they may appreciate that a little bit. Yeah.

Not too much shade, though, Doug.

Yeah. Yeah. Keep going. I was gonna say we gotta talk about this sun pendulum here. It it impacts the flowering and fall color.

Yep. Yeah. So you want, you want some shade so the moisture levels are protected and they're not just getting beat up by the harsh sun, but you can't have too much shade because then that affects the flowering. It can just diminish, the flower set and, also the fall color. So gonna find the right spot in your landscape for them.

And they're medium sized trees. I don't think we talked about, like, the size. They can get, you know, 30 feet, which is a, you know, a sizable tree plant in your landscape. It's not, you know, an overstory tree. We haven't claimed it to be 1.

It's an understory tree, of course, but 30 feet is still 30 feet. So site them appropriately. Yeah.

I think I think mine mine is sited underneath the sweet gum and right next to a a white pine. I think the sweet gum and the dogwood have an understanding, though. The the dogwood is about maybe 20 foot. That's been yeah. Yeah.

I'd say about 20 foot tall. And and the sweet gums saying, no no taller. You're an understory plant. I'm the canopy. So they seem to have figured out their own little community, and it's it's delightful.

Again, favorite in my yard. The fall color is also outstanding. I don't I do I have a picture of that. I could pop that in. It is a a nice red, dark red color, which stands out really nicely.

We kinda mentioned the shrub dogwoods and the red stems. The red fall color of this dogwood against that white pine, backdrop. I'm giving for people listening, I'm giving the Italian kissing, symbol. Very nice. Very nice.

Yep. So we've praised this a lot. It is not without flaw. There are some challenges to growing, Cornus Florida in, Illinois. First, it's not native.

The native range has not come up this far into Illinois. It's more Southern Illinois. It kinda wraps around. It's an interesting little, it almost, like, said, Illinois, you're good. We'll we'll catch you in the in the trade, But the native range just stopped.

We'll catch you in that climate change happening later on. Yes.

Yeah. But there are some, some struggles with cold tolerance in our region. We're all kind of northwestern Illinois, so there's some issues with cold tolerance, and then there's also some, challenges with anthracnose in particular and, dogwood borer. And so there's been some breeding programs that are crossing, Cornus, Florida with now we I think I got this mixed up. You believe it is with Coosa.

Correct? Or did I get this mixed up in my head?

Yeah. I think it was KUSA.

Anthracnose?

Yeah. To increase the tall the cold tolerance and the pest and disease resistance.

I thought

it was KUSA that had a resistance to anthracnose. And some yeah.

More so than

Florida. Resistance being not immune still still can be a problem.

But not not as much of a problem. Well, and then with the with the cold tolerance too, knowing the where that tree came from, like if you're getting a tree from a southern breeding program or from a southern source, the cold tolerance of that is going to be lesser than if it's coming from a northern source. So if you're a northern Illinois, try to find those northern varieties or something that's been grown in a northern area. It'd be a little more cold adapted.

Excellent point. Yeah. Providence, where where you're getting your plant material. Do we want to just touch briefly on Kousa then, you know, as another tree? There's not much

Mhmm.

To say about it?

Yeah. I I I would say a cornus coosa being the kind of the the Florida relative on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. I I know it as, there's coosa dogwood. I was taught Korean dogwood in school, but I think more commonly, it is Kousa or Chinese dogwood. And so but it it it is very similar to Cornus, Florida in regards to what it provides.

Flowers, it does provide a a fruit, and it does provide fall color. Now the fruit is distinctly different with cornuscusa being more of this, like, how do you describe, like a ball with little spikes, kinda Strawberries. Sandpapery. Not really spikes. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like a strawberry.

Round strawberry. Mhmm.

Yes. A rounded strawberry. I like that. And it is oh, go ahead.

Yeah. Well, I'd say, but it's not a strawberry. No. What you described. No.

It it is considered edible, but, Emily, what was that particular term that was in the texture of the It was goose fruit?

It was slimy to mealy, which are adjectives I don't look for on a menu. No.

Nope. I'll take the slimy and mealy, fruit bowl, please. Yes. Yeah. But it is bright red, ornamental bird food, squirrel food.

Some mammals will eat it. Birds will eat it. And and humans can eat it. I I think in its native range, you know, folks over in Asia do use this or can utilize it in cuisine. But it it is also well adapted to our North American climate here in Illinois, a bit more upright than flowering dogwood.

You know, flowering dogwood has kinda more horizontal type branching patterns, if not more dips down a little bit and then upright. Kusa is a bit more upright, stands more upright. And I I still think it's a pretty nice landscape plant. And while it is not part of my dogwood collection, I I would not mind if if it was also present.

Maybe this year.

Nah. I got everything in the plan. Run out of space.

There's another tree that we could talk about that really doesn't look much like these other 2 Mhmm. Which is the Cornelian cherry dogwood or cornice moss. Ken, do you wanna do you wanna describe some of the differences? This one's a fun one to consider.

Yeah. So this one's got, yellow flowers to it. And, like, I mean, looking at pictures, almost looks like, to me, like forsythia, like with, with all the blooms on those. And it's also got, like these others, it's, you know, green leaves, but as variegation, cultivars that are variegated and, bright red fruit that will develop. Those are edible too, aren't they?

Yeah. I think they're edible for humans. They're they're edible right now.

And maybe as we mentioned, edible, cornus florida, fire and dogwood. Humans don't eat that one. That's for the birds only. Not not for people.

I yeah. There's it reminds me of, forsythia, a little bit when you see the pictures of of them in bloom.

Yeah. It's funny you say that. I had the same thought. It was just like, oh, I've I've seen something like that before. And I also thought witch hazel, not quite so.

I mean, it's not, and the 4th fifty has a really good comparison, but I also I love witch hazel, so my mind kinda went there. But but it's a yellow blooming, small tree. And so that's kind of a fun early spring too. Like it blooms really early. And so, kind of kick starts the spring bloom, season.

So

And I'm looking on the book, I have it. Flowers can persist for 3 weeks and longer because of cold weather. So another longer longer blooming, plant.

And, of course, you have all different cultivars out there. I know there's variegated leaf cultivars of this one as well, gold leaf cultivars. I believe the the cherry fruit is red, but there's cultivars with a yellow or orange looking fruit. So the landscape trade has taken this one and and made it all different types of things out there that you can, use in your landscape.

Oh, I was just gonna say it's really fun to have all these options. Like, with such an reliable plan, like, from a design standpoint, you can customize. Like, if you're trying to, go with a certain color scheme or you prefer, you know, warm hues over cool hues, and you could just, like, personalize it. It's nice. Instead of just saying, like, you get this one option, take it or leave it.

Some plants are like that, which is is fine. Some of those plants are really, really worth having anyways, but this one you get to customize.

Now I might not plant a Kooza dogwood in my yard, but I'd love to have this one in my yard. The Cornus alternifolia, which, is the pagoda dogwood. I have not grown this one. I have only seen pictures of this one, and I have said to myself every time I've seen a picture, I I need to have this tree. But I as far as I know, it's hard to find in the nursery trade.

And so is there anything else I need to know besides I can't find this thing anywhere, the pagoda dogwood?

For our, like, more northern listeners, it is a more northern, species. So it is like the range is farther north. And so I do wonder, and I haven't looked into this, I do wonder if it would be more available farther north. I think we are at the southern end of its range, so that might may have something to do with it. Maybe not.

I'm speculating. This one also has those clusters of flowers. It doesn't have those really big, bracts. You know, like the 4 the 4 leaved bracts. So, really a nice a nice plant.

Yeah. You can add it to the landscape.

Okay. Purple purple fruit.

Oh, purple fruit. I like that. Oh. Just the the strong yes. That that horizontal branching that gives it that that Chinese pagoda type architecture.

Combine that with purple fruit.

I gotta find a spot to put this. Sounds like you need a bigger yard.

It's a it's a medium sized plant, though, too. Right? Like, these are these are small trees, and so make sure that you have 25, 20, 25 feet. So one more, that's not really a shrub, and it's not really a tree that I really want to find. And it's hard.

It's called the bunch berry. This is cornus canadensis. This is a ground cover. You guys have seen this. Yes?

Pictures only. But yes.

Yeah. Pictures only.

Oh, okay. Okay. I have I also haven't seen it, in person, but I want it. It sounds adorable. If a plant if I can just use that term professionally to describe a plant.

It just sounds adorable. It's only about 4 to 6 inches in height, little white flowers. It was a little like bright red fruit. And so if you can find it, it'd be great. One of the challenges with this though, in the wild, in particular, and the reason I think probably it's not as, commercially available is it has low fruit set, low germination rates, and it's a low survival rate.

So those are hard propositions for plant breeders to take on. But, I don't know. All that stuff just like maybe makes you want it even more. So

They don't think it likes hot weather either. That from what I've read about it is they're talking about it growing in Maine and being considered a a weed and like blueberries. Because they have the low bush blueberries up there. So they'll they'll actually spray it, to get rid of it. But like when people try to move it out outside of that native range, like, unless you're growing in, like, the Appalachian mountains or something where you've got cooler summers, people really struggle to get it to to establish and love.

That's how it goes sometimes. Plant, you know, we can want all we want, but sometimes we just live places where we can't have plants. So we can accept that or we could try it. And sometimes it'll work. Sometimes it won't, but, still an interesting form.

So we have ground covers, we have shrubs, and we have trees all in the cornice genus. So they do there are, a few challenges. Ken, do you want to talk about, especially, like, anthracnose and then also, dogwood, borer, and a couple of the the primary challenges?

Now we can get to the fun and interesting stuff

of today's podcast. What kills these trees and shrubs?

Yeah. So so dogwood borer is is one you hear about a lot. I've I don't think I've ever seen it, but it's one you hear about. So this is a clear wing moth. It's gonna lay its eggs on the trees.

And typically, they're gonna lay them around damaged areas. So if you're glad times when you're re pruning, particularly the trees and stuff, it's you don't necessarily wanna do that in the spring or summer when they're out laying eggs and stuff. So damage from pruning, if you're whacking it with lawnmower or weed whacker, you have these openings that they can get into. Eggs will the eggs will be laid. Caterpillars will come out.

They'll start feeding on that cambium layer. So typical are similar to, like, emerald ash borer. Feeding on where that, all the water nutrients are going up and down. They can girdle branches and trunks and stuff and cause that dieback and wilting and stuff. And if you get severe enough in, infestation or they're they girdle the trunk, they can kill your plants.

But it can cause a decline, of those trees. So, you know, making sure plants aren't stressed. They really like stressed trees. They're more susceptible to it. So, again, the the proper siting and watering, not too wet, not too dry.

Gotta find a little bit of that Goldilocks zone, for your trees and try to prevent some of that stress to them, will make it make them a little less susceptible, to attack from those. Dogwood and Thrachnos is another one, you hear quite a bit about, particularly for, flowering dogwood. I'm gonna read, let me find that. So there's a book, it's called Dogwoods the Genus Cornus. So it's like 200 some page book just on dogwoods.

So as you can tell, there's a lot of others. So this is how they kind of describe and why this is such a big issue. Dogwood anthracnose has been has had its most significant impact on native populations, especially in moist wood climates. In the southeastern United States, the spread has been quickest and the impact most severe in mountainous areas where cloud fog is prevalent during the key infection period. A 1986 report, listed the results of a survey of the native populations of Cornice, Florida and the Caddican Mountain National Park in Maryland.

According to reports, 3% of the plants surveyed in 1984 showed no signs of anthracnose and 33% were dead. A follow-up report indicated that in the same population 4 years later, all trees were infected and 89% were dead and there appeared to be no regeneration of young plants. Now from this population, they did find, the first resistant cultivar or the first resistant cultivar released, Appalachian spring, from that population. So there is some some, flowering dogwood resistance out there, some cultivars, that that are resistant to it. But for this, so it's, you're getting typically, the infections are starting off on leaves.

You're gonna get this discolored, discoloration on the leaves. Can get them on the bracts as well. And then this can progress into, into the wood, into the branches and stuff. And you kinda get these sunken, lesions, on the branches and stuff. And that can then spread and get these cankers, which again can girdle and kill stems and branches, and stuff like that.

And a lot of times these trees that are really severely infected will start sending out a lot of epicormic shoots or water sprouts. That's kind of the plant's last ditch effort to try to survive when it's losing a lot of, its foliage and branches and stuff. So like we mentioned, you know, the the there has been some breeding, with the Coosa dogwood and flowering dogwood to try to get some disease resistance. So Coosa is is more resistant, than flowering dogwood. It still can be, infected, but there's things like Aurora, the galaxy, the star type names, stellar pink, have some resistance, to, this anthracnose.

Also called, dyscalantheraknose because there's also spot anthracnose, which isn't doesn't cause nearly severe, symptoms or problems with it. A lot of times you see it on the discoloration on the bracts or on the leaves as well. And there's, septoria and cercospora leaf spot. Again, you're getting these spots on the leaves. And with all these good sanitation, cleaning up diseased plant material, preventing plants from being stressed again with proper fertility and pH and then soil moisture.

All that stuff can help prevent or some of the more severe symptoms sometimes. But if you've got a susceptible cultivar and you get the the discula or dogwood anthracnose, that can that can be a problem for you.

I think that's the most serious of problems of dogwood. Right? Industry wide, they're that's the one they're most concerned about and working hard to breed out or breed resistance.

And and University of Tennessee, and I I won't buy I'm assuming they still are, was doing a lot of breeding, and cultivar development for, for flowering dogwood. That's kinda like the epicenter, at least last I saw, of that work down there. And then I guess, you know, for scale, insects can be an issue, on dogwoods too. So again, that's you know, typically, they're not getting to populations where it'll cause problems, which you can spray for that. Dogwood bore, if you have issues with it, you can spray the trunk and stuff or any major branches, with the pesticide to to try to kill those caterpillars as they're hatching, and stuff.

So once they get in, there's not a whole lot you can do about it.

Yep. Keep your dogwoods healthy. Keep them mulched.

Piped properly?

Mhmm.

We talked about that. Well, thank you, Ken. That was thrilling.

I'm glad how you contribute.

Well No. That's good. I think we we all had to do a lot of research for this. A lot of reading. Does anybody have any fun facts to share about Dogwoods today?

Used to be made golf clubs. Yeah. Dogwood. Mhmm.

Yeah. The name, Dogwood comes from different there's theories where it comes from. Dagwood, would be one of them, and it was let me see. Skewers. Skewers.

Yep. Meat skewers. It's a really dense dense wood when it's dried. So,

yeah, splitting wedges too. Like, splitting wood.

Yeah.

Use dogwood. Supposedly the Trojan horse was made out of dogwood. Oh, boy. That's what I say.

Alright. I, dove dove into, a little more research. So when you look at the cult of our names, a lot of times, Cherokee pops up as being part of the name. I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of cultivars, but that one just, like, stood out to me, looking through them. So there's, like, Cherokee princess, Cherokee chief, Cherokee brave, Cherokee sunset, Cherokee daybreak, and Cherokee Maiden are a few of the ones that I found.

So, like, that number kind of made me just wonder what was going on. So, and these are all of, Florida, Cornus, Florida. And so, I dove into it just a little bit and from there's some ethnobotany, usages from the Cherokee nation. I'll just read it now. Okay, so I'll I'll just read what was from their website, the nation's, website.

And so it says the dogwood tree has been used by Cherokees for many generations. Dogwood leaves have been used for the treatments of skin infections and rashes due to certain antiseptic and disinfectant properties. Bark of the dogwood can be used in making a tea to alleviate anxiety and mild depression. Conversely, the same drink is also consumed during stomp dances to keep dancers alert throughout the night. Other uses include forming, the twigs into toothbrush substitutes, the wood into tool handles and branches into arrow shafts.

And so, a lot of our plants, a lot of our native plants have been used by indigenous peoples for a lot of different purposes. I just wanted to kind of share that and I also don't love that we use the name of the the nation in some of these names. It just makes me feel uncomfortable. And so I, kind of wanted to honor the nation by acknowledging that they use this tree that we love so much and is so beautiful, but it has real cultural, significance to them. And so there that was a interesting sidebar of the research that I went into.

Yeah. But as far as we know, the a hugely popular landscape tree named after their nation Mhmm. From their native lands, which they were taken from. Correct. They get nothing from any of that.

So

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The primary Cherokee, reservation is now in Oklahoma, and the range of the, Cornice, Florida does not extend to Northeast Oklahoma. And so, something to be mindful of.

Mhmm. I I also heard something in as you were reading that, Emily,

on a

slightly different note. If I ever write a book, brew a beer, anything, it's gonna be called Bark of the Dogwood. Just know that right now. That is mine. Trademark.

I have trademarked it, and, I I now own it, Bark of the Dogwood. I I really

Are you sure there's not already one?

I don't know. But it it in the text you read, it said that Bark of the Dogwood. I'm like, woah. That's a great name for something. And that goes into my favorite joke.

How do you how can you tell that the tree you're looking at is a dogwood? By the bark. Yes. I say that to my kids at least once a week.

That joke.

Yep. We drive by my dogwood, and it's like, hey, kids. How do you know that's a dogwood? Yeah. They don't talk to me when we're driving by that tree.

They put on their headphones.

Then I think you're raising them right. Good.

They do it when their friends are over.

Oh, yes. All their friends know the joke. Yeah. But I would say the one dogwood thing that I discovered, and found out is I I thought, you know, when we had our cherry blossom trees, when those are, given to us by Japan, I thought it was like a kinda like a gift, and it was a gift, but it was also sort of an exchange. The US also sent over dogwood trees to Japan to be planted over there.

And so I had no idea. I I but it was actually an exchange of these kind of notable, species that were native within each country, to each other's kinda capital cities. And so I I just thought that was very interesting, that that we sent them dogwoods. They sent us these beautiful flowering cherries. And and, yeah, that's what I learned.

I did not know that either. Yeah.

I like that nation's doing diplomacy through plant exchange. As long as it's all vetted and everything, they're not doing invasive species. Yes. There needs to be some checks. There needs to be some checks on that.

But

Yep. If

it all works out and it's just beautiful flowering trees, I like it.

Yes. They they did it back in the wild west of plant exchanges too where, did not vet anything. I think I saw bird eating that.

They did, screen plants, though. So when the, cherries, the first shipment of cherries were being delivered to the United States, when they arrived in the northwest, there was a plant check and they were infected with, I wanna say an insect. I would have to go back and look, but they destroyed them all, the first shipment. So there was a little little screening.

Well, that was a lot of great information about dogwoods. And, again, we're just really skimming the surface here. This was a light reading. And by light reading, I think we all spent maybe a couple hours respectively, each, one of us doing research. So, there's a lot to know about dogwoods.

Maybe we can dive more deeper into more specific species on a future date. Well, the Good Growing Podcast is production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by Emily Swyhardt editing a podcast episode. Oh my gosh. There's a parade going on right now. It's cheers and everything.

Oh, we're so happy to have you, helping out onboard editing these podcasts. Thank you, Emily. We appreciate you not only editing the podcast, but being here with us today talking all things Dogwood.

It's my pleasure. I always enjoy joining you guys. And if there's a tree topic that I can spend hours researching, sign me up.

Alright. The list is long. Yeah. Ken, we better get, get more tree topics on the the docket here, and I know we have them on our list. I'm looking at them right now on our document that we share with all of us.

But, thank you, Ken, for being with us here also today to tell us about all those things that go wrong with dogwoods.

Welcome. Yes. Thank you, Emily. We'll, we'll hold you to that, the tree episodes. And, Chris, again, thank you as always, and let's do this again next week.

Oh, we shall do this again next week, the perennial plant of the year. Don't listen, Emily. I know you're not not a favorite. Clustered mountain mint. We're gonna be talking about what is going on with the perennial plant of the year, what it is with this mountain mint, next week.

So, Ken, I guess we're reading more because I know about not that much about, mountain mint. So, dive. Hit the books again.

More than me. I've heard of it. That's about the extent.

I smelled it. It's minty sometimes. Alright. Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best in that is listening. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, watching.

And as always, keep on growing.

Next week, I should just pop on and defend myself. Like, 30 seconds.

Yes.

So, like, I'm not here, but I'm gonna be here for a minute.

That would be funny. Yes. I did a testimonial from Emily. Yes.

That was not nice. Just so that wasn't very nice. I lost a little bit of trust in you, Ken. I'm looking at you.

Does he ever drink pickle beer?

He didn't lose it after after the toothache plant or the cicadas or anything else. He took pickle beer.