Ep. 233 Deck the halls with holly: Growing and enjoying Ilex spp. | #GoodGrowing

Chris Enroth: 00:04

Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with the University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Galesburg, Illinois in a different locale. That's where I am currently. But we are going today be talking about a festive plant. We are going to be decking the halls with this particular plant with with boughs of it.

Chris Enroth: 00:26

And what exactly is a bough? Well, we will find out today. And you know I'm not doing this by myself. I'm joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Ken Johnson: 00:38

Hello, Chris. Get excited. 'Tis the season.

Chris Enroth: 00:42

Its your favorite season. Ken loves this time of year.

Ken Johnson: 00:48

We got lots of snow. Our holly is standing out nicely in a nice white landscape.

Chris Enroth: 00:55

Sounds good. Yes. We're we're diving into the the magical world of holly today. The genus is ilex, I l e x. So there's a lot there's a lot to cover here.

Chris Enroth: 01:10

You know? This is more than just a spiky, thorny, red berried little plant. There's a there is a little bit here that we need to cover. And and I do like this plant. I know, Ken, you like this plant.

Chris Enroth: 01:22

Right? You have you have a few of these in your yard, so we'll we'll cover the gamut.

Ken Johnson: 01:29

Yes. Cover the there yeah. Like I said, that yeah. I think people usually think of, you know, what we traditionally see at Christmas. What was there?

Ken Johnson: 01:37

Like, 800 evergreen species and 30 species of deciduous hollies in the world. So there's there's a whole lot out there.

Chris Enroth: 01:46

Yes. And and I'm enamored with with some of these, and so I'm I'm excited to get to a few species in particular. So but in terms of the whole history with Holly, I know it's really tied closely to, like, the holiday season. And and, actually, there was a trivia question we just had at at one of our meetings, and it was talking about how Holly is is tied to something like everlasting life and and and and because it's evergreen and and sort of that hope for the end of winter back into the growing season. And so but, yeah, there's there's a whole history to this in terms of how it was used in different cultures before us.

Chris Enroth: 02:29

Just like how when we talked about mistletoe and how that was used by the old druid tribes and and and so, Ken, what history can you unveil with holly for this year?

Ken Johnson: 02:44

Yeah. So so Druids also play a role in in this year's history as well. So with Druids, they believe the sun never sets or never deserted holly. So therefore, it's they consider it also considered a holy or sacred plant. So they would decorate the inside of their their built their dwellings, their homes with it, which so then the woodland spirits could then take refuge in them and rest from the rigors of winter, and then those spirits will then be, kind to them throughout the year.

Ken Johnson: 03:15

So for that and then, we move into, ancient Romans. Holly was used, to honor the god Saturn, god of agriculture during the Saturnalia festival, which was during the winter solstice, and Romans would give holly wreaths or other holly things to one another. There'd be processions with images of Saturn adorned with Holly and stuff. And because of this, during early Christianity, Christians would also decorate their homes with Holly to avoid persecution, and that kinda then morphed into decorations for for Christmas time as as kinda Christianity became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. So there's it's it's tied into this this holiday season, end the year, December, in a in a lot of different cultures, not just kind of that that Christian culture.

Chris Enroth: 04:06

You know, Ken, I don't know why, but every time we played games as a kid, you know, people would be a wizard, a mage, sorcerer, a warrior. I always chose druid. Druid is where it's at. It's where it all starts, whether you're talking mistletoe or holly. And that is really interesting that that transition from the worship of the god Saturn, the the Saturnalia festival to now then adorning the homes of of Christian families.

Chris Enroth: 04:34

So interesting. And still to this day, we use holly as as decorative greenery. We see quite a bit of that that sold in stores, usually fake holly, because that fake holly, it's not as pokey as the real stuff. So we are going to cover the all the different types of holly from the evergreen pokey holly to the smooth leaf deciduous hollies. If there ever were such a thing, there is, and they're neat.

Chris Enroth: 05:07

And so from ancient times to today growing these plants, you know, Ken, you said 800 plus species probably around the world of of Ilex, of holly. And so the growing conditions are going to be wide and varied, but let's speak generally here for a second. We are going to be planting our hollies in a moist, well drained soil. Now I say that's like every plant. That's like that's a good description for everybody practically.

Chris Enroth: 05:41

But but, yes, moist, well drained soils, and you want it to be acidic to slightly acidic soils. And and that's just like it's like the perfect soil for plants, at least where I'm concerned. You know, Ken, we're we're in Illinois, and and pretty much we just described our soils almost. We are rather flat, so drainage can be an issue in some spots, but we have a slightly acidic soil. We're pretty well drained in most spots.

Chris Enroth: 06:08

And in a typical year, we get adequate rainfall to for growing almost anything. You can grow anything here in Illinois. So we Illinois soils are well adapted to growing hollies. But for the evergreens, this the thing that I see most in terms of, like, winter damage, you know, first, there's, like, the sun scald that happens on deciduous trees, like thin bark maples. That's very common.

Chris Enroth: 06:34

But then probably the second most common winter damage I see is on broadleaf evergreen plants like our hollies, like our boxwoods, and that is winter burn from being desiccated from the winter winds. And because when the soil is frozen, that's essentially like a drought for these holly plants. So they can't take up that soil moisture to replace that water being pulled out of the leaves during the winter with the winds and such. So we do wanna make sure that we're sheltering our evergreen hollies in a in a nice location that is maybe out of the prevailing wind section of our homes. So they don't make great windbreaks.

Ken Johnson: 07:13

Or be ready to have some some damage to your leaves. They may not look as pretty as they could otherwise.

Chris Enroth: 07:18

Right. Right.

Ken Johnson: 07:19

And, like, for sun exposure, I think most hollies are your full sun. They can tolerate some shade. But the more shade you get in a lot of times, the less fruiting you're gonna have. Mhmm. So depending on how important that is to you, you may wanna consider that.

Ken Johnson: 07:32

In some species, especially the ones that don't really like hot, humid weather, lot of times afternoon shade would be beneficial for them. So it's kinda kinda depends on the plant a little bit. That's true.

Chris Enroth: 07:46

Yeah. Well and I think the thing that when I was, you know, doing a little bit more reading for this particular episode, there seems to be a factoid about Holly that people love to say. It I mean, it comes up. It's, right off the bat. Everything's like, do you know that these plants are dioecious?

Chris Enroth: 08:09

And everyone's like, oh, what's that? Then they're like, that's Greek, which means two houses. And so I will admit it. Whenever I'm talking about hollies, I also get pretty excited about that little factoid and and sounding really fancy and smart. But, yes, hollies are dioecious, which means that two houses means that the male plant is is is a separate plant than the female plant.

Chris Enroth: 08:36

So male flowers on one, female flowers on the other. Essentially, what we're talking about is pollen on one and then the fruit on the other. And so you need to have the male present in order to pollinate the female flowers to get your berries. Now the opposite of that is monoecious, and that mean that is one house. So male, female flowers, they live in one house or on one plant.

Chris Enroth: 08:59

So see see how I did that, Ken? Yeah. I was so excited to get my Daisha spiel.

Ken Johnson: 09:06

Yeah. And with with that, I so it's important when you're buying these, you get your male and your female plant. Because if you get all females or all males, you're not getting berries. And, again, it's gonna depend on the species, but typically, one male plant per for every three to 10 female plants, but it's gonna vary. Some some species, you may need a one to one, one male plant for one female.

Ken Johnson: 09:27

Some can be one plant for one male plant for 10 female plants. And you also need to sync up, make sure the blooming time is synced, and they can pollinate each other. So a lot of times, when you're when you're buying hollies, like mail order and stuff, a lot of times you can buy them as a set. So when I when I bought the the hollies we have, I think it was five female plants for one and you got one male plant with it. And then you could buy the female plants individually or the male plants individually, but you get a set.

Ken Johnson: 09:57

So you you know you know you have that the pollinator, for your female plants. And you have to have it relatively close. Doesn't have to necessarily be right next to it. But I think usually it's within a hundred, two hundred feet or so just so the the bees or or insects that are pollinating it can get back and forth to the plants.

Chris Enroth: 10:16

Yep. And and this is a good time, I say, where I'll often recommend, you know, if you're interested more in purchasing hollies and you really wanna have those that red those red berries for the wintertime, probably be a good idea to go to maybe a a reputable nursery. You could probably go to a big box store, and I'm sure everyone listening here, you know what you're doing, and you can find the male and female Holly. But if you do have questions, go into that reputable reputable nursery. You can find that grower there who can help direct you, making sure that you're you're purchasing that that female and male holly together with that bloom time.

Chris Enroth: 10:59

You know? Ken, I know when you purchased yours, you know, oftentimes, the female Holly has one name, and then the male Holly has a very similar type name. They were bred to basically correspond with their bloom time so we could get red berries in the fall. And I, yeah, I I would just say, you know, you might get better information there at that local nursery dealer as opposed to the big box store with the high school student, which I I tried to do that in high school, and they wouldn't hire me. So said I was couldn't couldn't work in the nursery center.

Chris Enroth: 11:34

I was bitter. I was bitter. Never went there again. So so, yeah, I yeah. Check out your local nursery dealers because you do have these different bloom times.

Chris Enroth: 11:45

You really you can generally say you have an early, bloom, period hollies and you have later season blooming hollies. Yeah. You just wanna match those up as as best you can. So they they can overlap in some cases, but, yeah, you wanna make sure you're matching your bloom cycles.

Ken Johnson: 12:05

Yeah. That's probably the biggest reason why when people grow holly is that they don't have fruit. Either they don't have a a male to go with them or something got mislabeled. Like I said, it still wouldn't have a male, but they they bought a male, but it got mislabeled or something like that. So if you're not getting berries, when it blooms, check those flowers and see if it's a you you have a male or female plant.

Chris Enroth: 12:29

Yeah. The and the male flowers, they'll have the the, the pollen tubes, not pollen tubes. What are they called? Stigmas. Stamets.

Chris Enroth: 12:38

Stamens. Stamens. Yes. I'm a professional, folks. They will have stamens.

Chris Enroth: 12:47

The female flowers, they'll have, like, a, like, a kind of a ball shaped structure in the middle. That's going to become the berry in the future. The female flowers can produce false statements, though. I think that kinda tricks the pollinators to come in and visit them. But so so keep an eye out for that.

Chris Enroth: 13:07

But the males aren't gonna have the that center disc in there that will become the berry in the future. So, yeah, take your magnifying glass out and take a look at those flowers. Yes. Well and I think another common question with our hollies comes with pruning. Now a lot of us prune them this time of year.

Chris Enroth: 13:30

We we wanna take cuttings of them maybe into our homes with the berries on it, with the evergreen foliage. And so you're doing some research before the show and noticed some inconsistent information in terms of, like, when do things bloom, like, on what type of wood, like last year's wood, this year's wood. So did you get any conclusive information about bloom time and pruning?

Ken Johnson: 14:01

It will depend on the species as to whether or it's gonna bloom on old wood or new wood. So some of the old woods would be Ilex aquifolium, which is the English holly, cornuta. What is that? Chinese holly?

Chris Enroth: 14:14

Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 14:15

I should have wrote out the common names first. Vomitoria, which is an awesome name. That's the Yapin holly Wow. Which I don't think we could grow up here. But those are gonna bloom on old wood and then on on new wood, that current season's growth, opaca, which is American holly.

Ken Johnson: 14:35

Mhmm. Glabra, which is inkberry. And then Winterberry, depends on where you read. Some places say Newwood. Most places, it'll say Oldwood.

Ken Johnson: 14:47

I did I do have this Holly book that I bought several years ago. I don't know why. At a used bookstore, but it finally came in handy. I think I even bought it before I started working for extension. But it lists, it says that deciduous hollies bloom on old wood.

Ken Johnson: 15:05

So I am leaning towards, like, winter berry being Oldwood, but there's some some places say new. So I'm not

Chris Enroth: 15:12

Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 15:13

It has me doubting what's actually going on.

Chris Enroth: 15:16

I if you pin me in a corner, Ken, I would I would say it would they bloom on old wood because we had a winter berry where I was growing up, and I remember I remember it blooming early in the spring. And that there just wouldn't have been enough time for new wood to develop unless, boy, that holly's growing in the dead of winter, but I don't think so. So, yeah, I pin me to the corner. That's what I would say. But, also, I think that's interesting that young Ken Johnson knew that we were gonna be doing a podcast episode about Holly.

Chris Enroth: 15:52

So way to go on buying that book, like, twelve years ago, thirteen, fifteen years ago?

Ken Johnson: 15:58

I'm not sure when it was. But, yes, it's been sitting on the bookshelf for a while, and I finally had the had the, I guess, the nudge I needed to actually

Chris Enroth: 16:06

look this. Time time to get it used up. There you go. Excellent. Excellent.

Chris Enroth: 16:12

Well, I've I think we've covered kind of the maybe the general basics of holly growing. Should we dive into specific species now?

Ken Johnson: 16:23

I think that sounds like a good plan.

Chris Enroth: 16:25

Excellent. Well, we have divided these hollies into groups because, boy, don't we love doing that. So we are going to start with our rounded leaved evergreen holly. Now these are ones that are very often considered, like, substitutions for boxwood. Boxwood, by the way, is one of the number one, like, industry leading nursery plant that's sold.

Chris Enroth: 16:54

Everyone pretty much has a boxwood somewhere in in their yard. I know I do even though I didn't plant it. I I have it. I've even dug boxwoods up trying to kill them, and I tossed them in the backyard. They're still alive.

Chris Enroth: 17:06

So they're a tough plant, but maybe but they they don't really offer much other than evergreen always. Hollies offer a little bit more. We get our red berries, and we can get some interest I mean, very small minimal flowers, but you can see them when you when you look closely, and they're very attractive pollinators. So the first one that we're gonna talk about, this is one that I first found when I was a young lad, a student down in at SIU Carbondale, Inkberry holly, also known as gallberry. This is Ilex Glabra.

Chris Enroth: 17:44

And I recall being on campus down there, and they had a Japanese garden. It was designed by the local the landscape design course class there a few years before I got there. And I remember along the path, there being a cluster of inkberry hollies, and I just absolutely love that plant. There was a bench sitting right there, and I would sit there. I'd do work.

Chris Enroth: 18:08

I'd read the daily Egyptian. I would I I would just I spent a lot of time sitting next to that Ilex glabra, and it formed kind of like a nice little colony. It had suckers coming up from the root system, and it was a bit more leggy than a boxwood. I'd say a little bit taller, maybe not as sparse in or sorry. Maybe not as dense in terms of the foliage.

Chris Enroth: 18:33

It was more sparse, definitely less leaves at towards the bottom. But still, it was just a different look, a different texture than boxwood, and so I was really, really interested in this plant. It did form these kinda inky dark fruits towards the later half of the season, and it held on to them, held on to the leaves, and I I just found it quite interesting. Now you could find this plant growing all the way from, like, the Southern Gulf Coast states all the way up to Maine. I didn't see Illinois, though, listed as a native a part of its native range.

Chris Enroth: 19:14

I I just looked at one spot, though, and it wasn't the USDA site. But but I did not see Illinois listed in this native range, but it grows here just fine. And it's absolutely a a fun plant. I I really like it.

Ken Johnson: 19:29

Yeah. I think there are some cultivars that are out there that are little more maybe compact, a little more dense than maybe a little closer to to a boxwood if if you really want that to be a kind of a one to one substitute.

Chris Enroth: 19:44

Yeah. Yep. And, of course, that's what the industry that's what they wanna do. They're trying to make, you know, what could be the next boxwood while still maybe providing a little bit of habitat value and maybe even as the industry girds itself for potentially more boxwood blight around the corner, which is a near fatal disease for for boxwoods, I would say, almost I don't well, we need a pathologist here, but guaranteed fatal disease for boxwoods. But I'll leave that one to you, Ken.

Chris Enroth: 20:21

How I don't know how bad boxwood blight is.

Ken Johnson: 20:24

Yeah. I don't know if it's a 100%, but it's causing lots of problems. Yeah. Put it

Chris Enroth: 20:29

that way. That's that's why they're looking for substitutes. Yeah. So, yeah, inkberry holly. I'd I'd suggest people check it out.

Chris Enroth: 20:37

I know it was growing in Southern Illinois, of course, back way back when with the change in our USDA hardiness zones, like, now, like, central like, Jacksonville where you're at, you now have the Southern Illinois winter that I Yeah. Just watch that winter winter burn on it. Yeah. Oh, the other thing that you can do with Inkberry is that you can brew a tea, and it is common enough that it has its own name. It's called Appalachian tea, made from the leaves of the holly, the the inkberry holly.

Chris Enroth: 21:26

Probably a very important thing for us to mention right now, the berries of hollies, While you might see other animals eating them, humans do not eat these. They are toxic to us. And, you know, while you eating a few might give you an upset stomach and you won't feel good, eat several more, and then you'll definitely have some hospital bills that you don't wanna have to deal with. So leave the berries alone. Leave them for the birds.

Ken Johnson: 21:55

And some I guess it's not useless, but random trivia for you here. They're not actually berries. They're drupes. Yes. So so drupes have that hard endocarp or the part next to the seed, like the Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 22:08

Pit of a beach. Berries have fleshy endocarps. So, technically, they're drupes even though we call them berries.

Chris Enroth: 22:15

Mhmm. True. Yes.

Ken Johnson: 22:18

But we're gonna still keep calling them berries.

Chris Enroth: 22:20

Because we can't help it. Well, we do have one more of our rounded leaf evergreen holly, and that's going to be Ilex crenata or crenata. This is known as Japanese holly. It's also known as boxwood holly. So this one probably more closely resembles boxwood kind of growth habit than, say, inkberry right off the bat.

Chris Enroth: 22:51

This is one where, you know, follows all what we've talked about with hollies in terms of where we plant it. You know, part sun, full sun, moist, well drained soil, slightly acidic. I will say even with inkberry, the ilex crenata or or the Japanese holly does do I think it does okay in the shade. I've I've seen it growing underneath, kind of smaller trees, like fringe tree and things like that, and it looks pretty nice. It's a little bit, shorter stature.

Chris Enroth: 23:24

I mean, the kind of the wild species gets five to 10 foot tall, but, of course, there's cultivars that are smaller than that. And then anything five to eight foot wide. I I do think our hollies, they can grow a little bit kind of wide, like, kind of a more I don't if it's, cumbersome might be the wrong word, but, yeah, a little bit more wide and gangly sometimes depending upon the cultivar. You might have a really nice tight dwarf type cultivar that doesn't do stuff like that. The other thing about hollies, kind of general, but especially with this boxwood holly, is that they are tolerant of a lot of lousy clay soil conditions and urban kind of pollution tolerant conditions as well.

Chris Enroth: 24:11

So they do make really good, like, urban landscape plants. And they're the fruits for this holly, they are small. They're they're dark in color, kinda dark blue, black color. They are droops, not berries, but we do call them berries. And and like most hollies, these are going to ripen in the fall.

Ken Johnson: 24:36

And you mentioned them getting wide. You know, if you're if you're growing them as a hedge, at least according to my Holly book, they they're blooming on new wood as is the ink berries. So if you're having to prune these back in the spring, you're not necessarily removing flowers as long as you're not doing it too late. So you can do some, probably, a little more shaping of them. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 25:01

Or it will probably be little more forgiving for shaping when it comes to berries because you're usually a lot of times pruning that in the spring for that. So

Chris Enroth: 25:09

I I do have a holly bush, and it is by I think the former owners put it there to mask the air conditioning unit outside. And so I pretty much have to routinely prune this to keep it away from the that heat pump AC unit outside and keep it away from the house, kinda train it, direct its growth. I've I've always but I hand prune, I guess. You know? I'm not shearing.

Chris Enroth: 25:38

I'm not doing any of that. So, yeah, never had an issue. Alright. Well, Ken, this next section, I think this is for you. Like, is your this is your jam here.

Chris Enroth: 25:52

The rounded leaf, so not spiky, but they're deciduous. It's like these plants don't read the books. They don't know they're supposed to be evergreen. Can you tell us a little bit about some of these deciduous hollies?

Ken Johnson: 26:06

Yeah. So the first one, we've got Ilex decidua or possumhaw. So this is another, this is a native species. I believe it is native to to Illinois. It's gonna be it's pretty tolerant of a lot of different soil conditions.

Ken Johnson: 26:20

So can have handle those heavier soils like we have in a lot of Illinois. Maybe a little bit wetter conditions than some of the other hollies, that are out there as well. So maybe a little more adaptable, than some of the others. It it can also sucker and can form colonies. So depending on on where you're putting it and the size of your yard, maybe the straight species isn't something you want.

Ken Johnson: 26:43

But if you got a lot of room, that may be something, you could if you look at, it's kind of an upright shrub with a a spreading rounded crown. So maybe kinda think of it like upside down triangle or point at the bottom, so it's flaring out. The top could be seven to 15 feet tall. Kinda straight species, maybe a little bit taller. Oh, yeah.

Ken Johnson: 27:06

There are cultivars that are smaller that are that are out there. Berries are kind of a reddish orange. And again, cultivars cultivars out there that have more orange berries or drupes, what have you. So there there can be some different fruit colors as well or more red. I believe this is one where you want a little more of a more one to one male to female ratio.

Ken Johnson: 27:27

They're little bit lower ratio than than some of these others. So keep that in mind if you're gonna be planting this kind of a a widespread. And this is zone five through nine, so it can it can go throughout the state.

Chris Enroth: 27:41

Yep. I this one grew a lot in in Southern Illinois. We we saw this quite a bit, like, with our woody plant ID class, possum haw. Also, excellent name for a plant. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 27:55

It's one of my favorite ones, Say out loud. We had a North Caroline Carolinian professor with a real southern draw, and he loved this name as well. Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 28:07

And then the other one that we'll we'll talk about today is Ilex vericillata or winterberry. This is this is the one we have in our yard. We have the cultivar berry poppins. And mister poppins, like I said, a lot times the names of someone, mister poppins is the male cultivar, for that. So this is another native, species.

Ken Johnson: 28:27

Again, they can tolerate a little more wet conditions, better than some of the other, hollies, that are out there. And a lot of times this one, you find a lot of times in more kind of swampy areas of Eastern North America. Maybe not directly in the swamp, but but close to where you still have these wetter soil conditions, for it. Again, upright, it's kinda rounded, habit, three to 12 feet tall, so you can have this big variation there. They this will also sucker and it can form thickets.

Ken Johnson: 28:58

I will say the cultivated type that we have is just not sending up a whole lot of suckers, maybe a few here and there. So probably not nearly as much as you would The the straight species and like the berry poppins, what was that? It's three to four ish feet tall, so it's that's the reason we got it so much shorter. We've got it in front of our porch. We don't want it covering all that up.

Ken Johnson: 29:21

And they've got these really bright red, pretty drupes, berries on them, and I can throw a picture of that in. And now that we've had all the snow, it really kinda pops, you in the landscape when when we get snow. So and then this is a zone three through nine. So, again, we've got the whole state that's covered here. Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 29:45

The Ken's your berry pop ins is so cute. He's shared pictures of it with me before, and I I love this plant. I don't know why I don't have it in my yard, but but I I think I also understand why people want more of these dwarf types because I want all of these native plants in my yard, but they're not all gonna fit. So I need to get smaller versions of them so that they'll all fit. It all makes perfect sense to me.

Chris Enroth: 30:10

So berry poppins is very adorable, little, winter berry holly.

Ken Johnson: 30:16

Yeah. And there's there's quite a few. I I think this one's gonna add a lot of breeding done with it. There's a lot of different cultivars out there. Jim dandy is probably one of the more common pollinating male, cultivars of this.

Ken Johnson: 30:30

So that's probably one you would you would probably encounter quite a bit, if you're looking for, winter berries.

Chris Enroth: 30:37

Yeah. The other thing I see a lot of that winter berries used in is rain gardens. And so you Ken, you had mentioned very tolerant of, wet soils. And so this would be one of those if you need a little bit more structure in your rain garden planting palette. You know, it's not all herbaceous plants.

Chris Enroth: 30:57

Maybe if you need a little bit of, like, you know, woody plant structure in a rain garden, this would be one of those that, you know, I think would be well adapted to those types of conditions that you would encounter in, like, a a rain garden. Yes. So we need more deciduous hollies in the landscape. I can't can't wait to go get mine. These shows that we do, Ken, where we're, like, going through these plants, I'm just like, oh, I just want them all.

Chris Enroth: 31:21

So

Ken Johnson: 31:21

Need to need to win the lottery so I can buy Yes. Some some acreage and just start planting everything.

Chris Enroth: 31:27

This this will be the good growing arboretum. Well, until we get there, let's move on to our next grouping of plants, and this is going to be the classic spiky evergreen foliage. And the first one we have here is Ilex miseuve or miseuvere. I don't know how to say it, but it is cross a of what is it a cross of? That's the English holly and the Asian holly, rugosa, and aquifolium.

Chris Enroth: 32:04

And I don't I'm not as familiar with this one. I have seen it in the nursery, and I've seen a lot of it in, like, plant catalogs. So it has this is the holly that has the bluish tint to its foliage. And I think it is very popular in in a lot of different landscapes, a lot of gardens, and that that bluish tint really seems to to sell this particular species. It does get the red berries.

Chris Enroth: 32:32

With all of its cultivars, you'll even get different colored coloration of foliage. And and even with previous ones we mentioned and ones we'll mention, there's a lot of variegated types also out there. So you'll see a lot of creams and whites and things streak through that foliage color. But this is a it's across it's a high hybridization of the English holly and the East Asian holly, rugosa. It will grow three to eight foot tall, about six to eight foot wide.

Chris Enroth: 33:00

So, again, this still gets pretty wide. Occasionally, can reach up to 15 foot tall. And and I would say depending upon the cultivar that you buy, you can get various habits, which ranges anything from, like, you know, columnar, v shaped, rounded. And I think this particular one, if I'm remembering correctly, this one, this is the slowest of all of the Holly growth rates. I might be making that one up, but I know it's a slow grower.

Chris Enroth: 33:36

It might be one of the slowest ones. So if you you want a big plant that's not gonna do much for several years, you know, think possibly, this blue holly right here. For this one, you do need a male for every three to five plants. The one that you're gonna be looking for, the name of that male cultivar is gonna be blueprints, and they're sold as that that pollenizing plant.

Ken Johnson: 34:03

Yeah. A lot of the the female well, well, male and female have blue names of blue prints, blue boy, blue girl, blue princess. And so, yeah, there's bunch of different cultures. I was looking just looking at a list of some golden girl mesogold. I think I said that right.

Ken Johnson: 34:22

Has yellow fruit. So even get into different fruit colors there as well.

Chris Enroth: 34:29

I think one where you might have a a look alike, and that's gonna be Oregon grape holly, which is not actually a holly at all. It's a mahonia, but it has also a bluish tint to the foliage, and it is awful. I do not like this plant. Talk about spiky. If you think hollies are spiky, mahonia, that's spiky, but they have very similar looking looking foliage.

Chris Enroth: 34:55

And I think, yeah, I've I've seen the Oregon grape holly very similar looking to the blue holly. Well, can this next one I mean, it's it's the holly. It is the one that all the songs are written about, you know, all the lore that you described there at the beginning. It is the traditional English holly, Ilex aquifolium. What you know, you already talked about the history of this plant.

Chris Enroth: 35:29

What what else can we say about it?

Ken Johnson: 35:31

So so English holly, like I said, that's the one we, you know, traditionally think of as Christmas. Hardy to Zone 7, so maybe it can grow in some parts, of Illinois, but it does not like hot humid weather. So when you think about Illinois summers, it's pretty hot and humid. So, like, you know, hardiness zone wise, Southern Illinois may be fine. It's probably not gonna be particularly happy, because of those hot humid conditions that we get.

Ken Johnson: 35:58

Again, this because this is never gonna protect protect from, winter wind from desiccation. If we are gonna try growing in Illinois, probably some afternoon shade, help with that heat a little bit, especially during the summers. And it grows as a tree, pyramidal shape, can get, 30 to 50 feet tall, in cultivation, sometimes up to 80 feet, in more natural settings and really old plants. We do get, typically red berries, there are cultivars that are orange or yellow berry plants, that are out there, the variegated leaves and stuff. And and this is one because it likes those we need that higher hardiness zones of seven to nine, but cooler summers, it's more of a Pacific Northwest that does well, it's naturalized in some of those areas, and then some places considered invasive because it does so well in some of those conditions.

Ken Johnson: 36:51

So you could grow it here, but it may struggle a little bit, especially during the summers.

Chris Enroth: 36:58

Well but, Ken, we we have a perfect alternative to the English holly. I think it looks even better than the English holly, the American holly or Ilex opaqua. That it is also a tree. It is to Illinois. Again, Southern Illinois.

Chris Enroth: 37:21

I saw these trees before quite often. I don't think I've ever seen an American Holly growing in Central Illinois at least wild. Maybe intentionally planted, but never wild. So maybe we'll double check those USDA range maps, but pretty sure I don't think it was found in Central Illinois. But now I think you could definitely grow it here with you.

Chris Enroth: 37:46

You're Zone 6. Right, Ken? Is that where you're at right now?

Ken Johnson: 37:49

Yes. And I think you can go to Zone 5, if I remember. Yeah. So

Chris Enroth: 37:53

Zone 5. Again, you do have to be a little bit careful of that winter desiccation, though. It's just just one of the when you're growing some of these broadleaf evergreens at the further furthest north extent of their hardiness zone, you you're rolling the dice a little bit with some of those winters. So while it can survive that zone five winter, you know, what if we get a few polar vortexes that winter? That could really just it could kill the plant outright or or really knock out any active buds where it just looks pretty lousy for the, you know, rest of its life or for at least a few years.

Chris Enroth: 38:32

But American holly has those very traditional holly looking leaves, big evergreen tree, red berries, and it is a beast to be to maintain. So hollies do shed leaves. They're evergreen, but they they'll often shed a lot of their interior leaves, like, in the spring once those berries start or sorry. Not berries. Once the drupes start to develop, you'll see some leaf drop, in the interior of the plant.

Chris Enroth: 39:00

Now I have had to do some maintenance underneath a holly before. They wanted those leaves raked up and removed. And I will say that is not a job for the bare handed. You need gloves. Even with gloves, I would, like, pull my hands up and just holly leaves would be stuck in my hands.

Chris Enroth: 39:21

And so something to be mindful of. I thought it was a great idea if we would have just left the leaves there. They weren't hurting anything, and they were doing a great job at controlling the weeds. But American Holly, very adaptable. I I do recall this one growing right outside the Ag Building where I went to school in Carvondale.

Chris Enroth: 39:42

And so just a delightful tree to have in the landscape, and that just a massive evergreen color in a stark winter landscape. What more could you ask for?

Ken Johnson: 39:55

Yeah. And there are, you know, cultivars of this one too. They're they're more of a upright more upright growth, a little narrower. There are some that have different colored berries or droops, on them as well. So and more bushy.

Ken Johnson: 40:09

So, yeah, there's there's some variation out there if you you look. I'm not sure how easy it is to find some of these cultivars, but they're out there, maybe, possibly. And I I did check the the bone app for American Holly, and it is native to Far Southern Illinois. There's a Yeah. Couple, well, one county that's yellow, so present for rare.

Chris Enroth: 40:40

That's that's what I figured. But, yeah, we're you know, us in Central Illinois, we can probably grow it. Europe, a little bit farther north than Illinois. You could probably still have it survive, but I'd worry about desiccation once we get into those, really cold winter conditions. Well, Ken, one holly I don't know if we nest we we do have it on the list, but we have it on the list as, like, named cultivars, and that is Ilex cornuda.

Chris Enroth: 41:10

That's the Chinese holly, and that is what I think I have growing in my yard. I didn't plant this one. Like I said, this thing is planted as kind of a a baffle to the air conditioner, like a visual barrier, and it is not the prettiest plant. And it's one of those where I'm like, initially, we moved into the house, and I said, we're cutting this thing down. We're getting rid of it.

Chris Enroth: 41:41

It's ugly. But I recommend this to everyone. We just sat on it. You know, we sat on the whole landscape. Just wait to see, let the landscape reveal itself to you for about a year.

Chris Enroth: 41:52

And I remember sitting there in the living room watching this holly with its red berries in the middle of winter, and I saw these robins. I saw cardinals. I saw all these birds in this plant using it as shelter and food. And so after I saw that, I'm like, oh, I kinda like the shrub. And so now it has become something that I prune, something that I manage with maybe in the future, I will dig it up and move it somewhere, but I think it's been in there in that spot since the house was built in the seventies.

Chris Enroth: 42:34

So, it's gonna be quite the task to move. But it it has red berries, as you can see here in the video, and I don't know where the male is. So it might be one of the named cultivars that we have here on our list, Ken. I'm thinking it's the second one, but let's start with the first one. The first one is Nelly Stevens.

Chris Enroth: 42:57

This one is more like a Southern US plant. So if you're listening and you live in a very hot part of the world, the this might be the holly for you. It's very tolerant of that summer heat weather. So it's a hybrid of of Ilex aquifolium and Ilex cornuda, the Chinese holly. Gets up to 30 foot tall.

Chris Enroth: 43:23

If it's in a happy place, 20 foot 25 foot wide, and it is a heavy producer of berries. You can grow this in the full sun, part shade. As as Ken mentioned, you know, it is a good idea to protect these from the afternoon sun if we can, especially if we're in the Southern Part of The US. Likes acidic soil, but really can go anywhere from, like, heavy clay, but probably not like rain garden sites. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 43:56

Just it's very heat tolerant, and the form of it is kind of Christmas tree shaped pyramidal or pyramidal, however you wanna pronounce that. I always pronounce it pyramidal, and then I've been corrected multiple times. It's pyramidal. But what how do you say it, Ken?

Ken Johnson: 44:12

I've always heard pyramidal.

Chris Enroth: 44:14

Well, who's saying pyramidal?

Ken Johnson: 44:16

Who are you hanging out with?

Chris Enroth: 44:17

I don't know.

Ken Johnson: 44:19

Or maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people.

Chris Enroth: 44:21

Well, well, we both are then. Well, as we we hang out together. If we keep doing that, we'll be fine. So, yeah, the you have the female plant, but it can produce some fruits without a male pollinizer. And mine doesn't produce that many red berries, not as many as as you would see in, like, a nursery catalog.

Chris Enroth: 44:43

You know, those branches are just overburdened with berries. Mine are scattered throughout. So possibly, I am growing a Nelly Stevens. I don't know. It could be a possibility.

Ken Johnson: 44:56

You idiot yourself an Edward j Stevens.

Chris Enroth: 44:59

No. Is that the pollinizer?

Ken Johnson: 45:01

Edward the male. Yes.

Chris Enroth: 45:04

Someone can you get an Edward in here, please? You know, that's the other interesting thing. So I don't have an as far as I know, there's no male hollies near my plant. Growing up, we had the winterberry, and there were no male hollies around. I wonder if other people have encountered that.

Chris Enroth: 45:23

You know, you have that you have that one holly. It's female because it gets the berries, but where's the male? I don't know. I have a mystery male holly lurking around the corner somewhere.

Ken Johnson: 45:34

Say that or you just overlook it. Like, winter berries, I think that'd be pretty easy to overlook. Yes. Yes. The males are pretty at least mine is pretty nondescript, but it's just random shroud.

Ken Johnson: 45:44

Mhmm. More or less. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 45:46

I I I agree. Yeah. And our all of our attention is drawn to those red berries in the winter, so we wouldn't even think to look for that other plant. No. But, Ken, there is you know, these plants aren't reading the books.

Chris Enroth: 46:03

There is this next one. It is the Burford holly. And I do wonder if mine is somewhat related to that Burford holly, because it does not require the male at all to produce berries. It is a bred from the Ilex cornuda, so it is a Chinese holly. Grows anywhere from five to 25 foot tall depending on your cultivar that you've got, eight to 15 foot wide.

Chris Enroth: 46:31

A lot of it matches with what I'm growing, but I'm not sure. It's one of those.

Ken Johnson: 46:41

Get out the you can you can borrow my book. It's got a whole section on identification. Oh, excellent. A giant.

Chris Enroth: 46:48

That's most of

Ken Johnson: 46:49

that's most of the book talking about the different species.

Chris Enroth: 46:51

Well, then so Ken and I were planning to meet up here this week, so there's a lot of things we have to exchange. And now it's a Holly book on top of it. So well, very cool. Very cool. Well, we we really just kind of skimmed the surface of the different types of Hollies out there.

Chris Enroth: 47:11

Those are gonna be the ones that you probably find more often in the the garden center. But before we, like, close this out, there's also this whole other side that we we've maybe touched on here and there, and that's its beneficial impact for wildlife. So can you know, are these good for the wild things out there?

Ken Johnson: 47:37

Yeah. So they're they're blooming plants. We're gonna have pollinators visiting them. We have those flora resources, the pollen and the nectar, available for those in a lot of times in the spring. There are different species of butterflies and moths that will host plants, different ileak species or host plants.

Ken Johnson: 47:56

For those, probably more of our native species are gonna be a little more impactful for that, than some of the the non native stuff. And like you mentioned with the the birds, sub habitat, for the food source, I will say, like, for for some of the the the hollies and winter bearing, this may be the case for sometimes they need to go through a few freezes before they become a little more palatable, to birds and wildlife and stuff. Would say our our winter berries stick around for a very long time, oftentimes in the spring. They are still on the plant. So I don't know how much how much that gets eaten by the birds during the winter.

Ken Johnson: 48:36

It's in our front yard, so we don't really look out there all that often. I need to move it somewhere where I can actually observe them, a little more often to see how often birds visit visit those plants. But they they will, feed on those those various those drupes, whatever you wanna call them as well.

Chris Enroth: 48:53

Yeah. I I've noted a lot of the the foraging of the berries happens, like, mid to late winter. That that's when I say I see a lot of it, especially when we get sort of that really extreme freezing conditions, really cold conditions, the birds they'll be using for shelter. I'll watch them pop a couple bear droops in their mouths. We're gonna be saying it right by the end of the show.

Chris Enroth: 49:19

Right? So it the you get a nice long season, like winter season with those berries, for that color and then that benefit of of the wildlife food source.

Ken Johnson: 49:34

Yeah. They're not necessarily picked clean right away, so you do get to join enjoy them for a while. And I have I have read. I I don't I'm assuming it's true that the the yellow and orange ones are eaten after the red ones a lot of times. They'll go after the red, and then yellow and orange Less preferable for whatever reason, but those tend to stick around a little bit longer in landscape.

Ken Johnson: 49:54

Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 49:56

And remember, humans do not eat those drupes. Yeah. I mean, birds can, but birds also eat poison ivy berries. So just just keep that in mind. They got a tougher gut than you and I.

Ken Johnson: 50:11

Yes. But you can consume, like you mentioned, some hoteys. So Yes. For you that

Chris Enroth: 50:19

you got, Ken?

Ken Johnson: 50:20

I'm gonna sacrifice. I have I have made no secret of my disdain for tea, but there are a couple teas that you can buy that are made from Hollies. So one is the the Yapon, Yapon, however you wanna say that, the vomitoria. Mhmm. That is I Ilex vomitoria.

Ken Johnson: 50:39

That is a tea, that, indigenous peoples would use or create. And it was given the name vomitoria because it I'm trying to remember hopefully, I'm getting this I'm remembering the story right. Is that they would they drink a lot of this and a lot of times vomit. But it's not necessarily the the tea itself. It's not making you vomit.

Ken Johnson: 50:58

It's just I think the the amount they were consuming and some of the other, activities and stuff. But I was given the inflammatory because, settlers and and Europeans thought that that was the the cause of their vomiting. So that is a tea, you can make. And there's also yerba mate, which is a tea an Ilex species that is native to South America. That is also the leaves are also used to make a tea, and it's quite popular in some countries down in in South America.

Ken Johnson: 51:32

I think, Argentina, being one of them. So since last week was Thanksgiving, I got some of these teas, and I subjected my family, to taste testing those. And I will say, a good chunk of my family does not like tea, but there are some that do. So the yerba mate, this is a I guess you would call it a loose leaf tea. It's just kinda loose in the bag.

Ken Johnson: 51:59

So it's when you make it, at least the stuff I bought, it's it's kind of a dirty looking tea, kinda like a pond water, which I know doesn't sound all that appetizing. And to be honest with you, I don't think it tastes much better. Know I'm not doing a good job of selling this, but I will. Still not good, even cold.

Chris Enroth: 52:26

Even as iced Yaffen tea, it's still not good.

Ken Johnson: 52:29

It's not quite as bad. So to me, it tastes and, again, I don't I don't I don't like tea. I don't drink coffee. But to me, tastes kinda like a mix of tea and coffee. It's got a real bitter bitterness to it.

Ken Johnson: 52:40

The smell, that's not particularly pleasant. So I'm it may not be welcome in South America after this. But it it kind of a grassy wet grass smelling. So several of my family members described it as that as well. I don't think if I give them something to drink, they may not take that anymore from me after drinking this.

Ken Johnson: 53:04

So there's a lot of gagging. Okay. Even even from the tea even the peep people that drink tea, they didn't like it either. So maybe in a

Chris Enroth: 53:15

Ken, you you do have some direct quotes, though, from your your study over the holiday week.

Ken Johnson: 53:20

I do so. So my wife was taking notes for me as I was subjecting people to this. So I will I'll say I'll I'll start with my wife. She does drink tea. She drinks black tea.

Ken Johnson: 53:29

She has a bitter taste, smells like a wet leaf pile. My son who drinks green tea tastes and smells like decomposed leaves. And this could be on the the maker as well. I'm I'm not gonna absolve myself from all fault here. One of my sisters, dirt smells like wet grass after mowing, and it started breaking down.

Ken Johnson: 53:51

Then five minutes later, this taste is still in my mouth, like warmed up garbage. So let's see. Think my mother-in-law tried some. She drinks tea. She says it smells like soup or beef broth.

Ken Johnson: 54:10

Tastes like a cup of like a tea, but gross. So tea drinkers, like, my one of my brother's tea with a hint of compost. Not good. Really sits on your tongue. My sister in law's you breathe in, it won't it it won't go away.

Chris Enroth: 54:29

Wow.

Ken Johnson: 54:30

So and we even added I didn't do this forever. We added a tablespoon of sugar to a cup, and it still was not still was not very popular drink. So Mhmm. Somebody said, I don't wanna play this game anymore after drinking it. Oh, no.

Ken Johnson: 54:52

And then the Yapon, which is our our native tea. This one does come in in tea bags. So this it's a much cleaner looking drink, which is because it's probably in the spine mesh, whereas I was just put the other stuff in in water and poured it through a strainer so I didn't get all the dust and stuff out. But this one is is much more palatable.

Chris Enroth: 55:19

Still not still not a tea drinker though.

Ken Johnson: 55:22

Still tastes like grass to me. But it's a it's a clear color. Think what you would typically think of tea, kind of a green, green tea, and stuff. So my wife, again, black tea drinker, smells like wet leaves, but not as strong. Tastes like regular black tea, not bitter.

Ken Johnson: 55:41

Smells better for my sister. Actually tastes like tea. The other sister who had thought the other stuff was absolutely disgusting. Smells like leaves, not as bad. Still leafy.

Ken Johnson: 55:54

My son who drinks green tea said it tastes like green tea. So some other people were kinda bland. Tastes like regular tea. So maybe a better option of gourdas could be the way it was prepared. So if you're you're really into tea or holly, go get yourself some some holly tea.

Chris Enroth: 56:16

Some holly tea, baby. I love that. Well, I hope and I think if any listeners or watchers have any other ideas of what we can subject Ken's family to next Thanksgiving, give us some ideas. What new things are you gonna put on their plates or in their cups?

Ken Johnson: 56:35

I may not be invited back. Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 56:39

You know, I I did read that indigenous folks and then also early colonizers and then, confederates when the union had blockaded a lot of their supply trans movements used holly in a lot of different things. And there are parts of the plant that are good as laxative. There are parts of the plant that are good as a antidiarrheal. But I don't think you wanna get those mixed up if you're trying to treat one symptom and you just make it worse. So, yeah, I think there's there's definitely that world of medicinal use of plants, and this this particular our native hollies have have certainly played a role in that.

Chris Enroth: 57:28

But we at Extension, or at least the horticultural arm of Extension, we don't talk about that site. We don't do those recommendations because we only think about plant health and not people health.

Ken Johnson: 57:39

Yes. So if you're I would say if you're gonna be driven to tea, buy it. Don't don't make it yourself. And if I remember right, the Yapon plant, the tea, is one of the one of only a couple plants native to The US that produces caffeine. So there is caffeine in there.

Ken Johnson: 57:54

So if I start shaking, get all jittery. You know why? Yes.

Chris Enroth: 58:01

Ken's hooked on yapping. Oh, well, Ken hey. You know what? There's one more selling point for these plants. You know what that is?

Chris Enroth: 58:15

What? Deer.

Ken Johnson: 58:16

Deer.

Chris Enroth: 58:17

It's deer. Deer don't like them. They it well, I'm sure deer will nibble on them, but they hollies will kind of resist or tolerate deer browsing. So, yeah, the just another reason to incorporate more hollies in our landscaping.

Ken Johnson: 58:39

I wonder how bad rabbits are.

Chris Enroth: 58:43

Yes. Because they're thin bark. Like, they're smooth bark. It would be something I would think a rabbit would wanna nibble on in a wintery day. I don't know.

Ken Johnson: 58:54

I've eaten mine, but I don't have a a big rabbit problem either. So

Chris Enroth: 59:00

I have quite a few. So I'll plant some and let you know. Well, that was a lot of great information about the wonderful world of hollies. So now we can deck our halls with boughs of hollies of all different shapes, sizes, types, evergreen, deciduous with berries. So and, also, the winterberry holly, just thought of this.

Chris Enroth: 59:25

That is a a main ingredient in a lot of those pot decorations that you see this time of year as well. People will take cuttings off of those and use it to stick in pots and decorate their front porches and stuff with. So lots of uses for these guys during the holiday season.

Ken Johnson: 59:42

I don't think we ever define what a bow is. We teased it.

Chris Enroth: 59:46

Oh, we didn't. Oh, we did tease it. And listeners, viewers, you've had to wait till the very end.

Ken Johnson: 59:52

It was planned.

Chris Enroth: 59:53

It was. It was totally planned. So as a kid, I was I had no idea what that song was about. What are they talking about? A bow?

Chris Enroth: 01:00:04

What's a bow?

Ken Johnson: 01:00:06

I just thought it was like a ball. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 01:00:08

Yeah. Like a garland. Like a piece of garland or a swag. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 01:00:12

Mhmm. Branch. Yep.

Chris Enroth: 01:00:13

Yep. Mhmm. Yeah. So there you go. No need to Google it.

Chris Enroth: 01:00:20

We're the authorities on vows.

Ken Johnson: 01:00:21

You waited this long.

Chris Enroth: 01:00:23

That's right. Alright. Well, the Good Growing podcast production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by Ken Johnson. And, Ken, thanks so much for hanging out this week on the snowy day and talking about, I think, one of my, like, maybe top five favorite groups of plants, Holly. I I want more now.

Ken Johnson: 01:00:47

Yeah. I think I'm gonna have to find some more places to put our to put some winterberry now that we're landscaping our entire front yard. The ones we have now are gonna get kinda hidden. I'm gonna have to move them or get some more. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 01:01:02

Probably more. Get more. Yes. And thank you as always, and let's do this again next week.

Chris Enroth: 01:01:12

Oh, we shall do this again next week. We're gonna be chatting with Nick Frilman about persimmons. I've never gotten a good one. They've always tricked me and robbed my mouth of saliva. But he's gonna tell us, hopefully, how we can find the right one to eat.

Chris Enroth: 01:01:27

Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best and that is listening or if you watched us on YouTube watching. And as always, keep on growing.