Ep. 236 Persimmon Growing Facts & Folklore | #GoodGrowing

Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris, an educator at the University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a nice little garden bite for you. Maybe an episode two, we'll see what we get into here. We are diving back into the world of persimmons with local foods small farms educator Nick Frillman, because we have some things maybe you think about, some certainly what I think about when talking about persimmons, the folklore behind this native plant. And you know I'm not doing this by myself.

I'm joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Hello, Chris. Yeah. I think this is when I think persimmons, yes, the two myths folklore we'll talk about is usually what comes to mind, or first things that come to mind.

Yes. Yeah. And it is often in conversation the things we discuss with other folks when we're we're gathered around chatting about persimmon. So let us bring on local food small farms educator Nick Frillman in the Bloomington area. Nick, welcome back to the show.

Yeah. Thanks again for having me. Looking forward to dive deeper into all things persimmon.

Yeah. I there's just something about persimmons. I think when I I come across them, you know, we're we're doing, like, forestry classes or a hike through the woods, and I'm like, what is that tree? You know, they can have some pretty interesting looking barks, some interesting features. So tell me a little bit more about these wild persimmons.

How big do they get? You know, what what what should people be looking for on their wintertime hikes?

Yeah. Well, to refresh everybody's memory or familiarize those who didn't watch or listen to episode one, we're talking about American persimmon, which is Diospyros virginiana, not Asian persimmon, Diospyros kaki. That does not grow native to does not grow native in Illinois, but Diosperos virginiana does sorta kinda the demarcation point for natural growing in our woodlands and state forests and things. It's right about the Decatur area. Center of the state in Illinois is the most recent updated USDA map that that I've seen going all the way west to you probably have you probably have some in Schyuler County.

You might have some in McDonough County. And I I've heard that there are some in Mason County all the way over to, like, Douglas, Edgar, Piatt County, maybe. That's kind of the the northernmost border of where we can find them in the wild. And slowly slowly but surely, they're working their way north because our grow zones are changing, getting a little warmer. So this part of McLean County in Bloomington was 5 B for the longest time.

Now we're right on the border of 5 B 6 A. So I think probably by the time I'm I'm 30 now. By the time I'm 50, probably we'll have persimmons in McLean County naturally. But and we we may have one or two, you know, right now. But in terms of what to look for, super bumpy, interesting looking bark is what we look for bark wise.

I don't know. I referenced this pod podcast or or webinar earlier, but I think persimmon might be covered in the Chris Evans winter tree ID by bark webinar, I think. I'm not positive, so we'll check that out. Maybe link it in the show notes if we find that. But, yeah, once you see the bark, it's pretty indistinguishable from or it's pretty distinguishable rather from other trees.

Very easy to spot. The bark kind of jumps out at you a little bit. We'll include a I do have a picture of the bark that I could share as well. And then in terms of height or like other characteristics, if it's winter, those trees can grow pretty dang tall. Like forty, fifty feet is not uncommon where it's native, especially in the South, especially in like river bottoms where it's gotta reach real high for the sun.

But then where it's found in well draining soils, in fence rows or in kinda upland scrub, upland grassy areas, it won't need to grow quite as tall because it's not reaching so high for the sun. So probably 30 feet on average in a sunnier spot, 50 to 60 feet on average or or higher in some not so sunny spots, and then super distinct bumpy skin. If it was in the growing season, the leaves are very fleshy, pretty big, like bigger than your outstretched palm and fingers. Unifoliate, so it's one big lush leaf. I don't wanna call it rubbery, but Big fleshy leaf.

And then if it's in fall, they turn a really awesome yellow gold orange color in fall. So they provide multiple seasons of interest, foliage, fruit, and bark.

Well, it sounds like a lovely tree to have in in my front yard. I'd love to get that in there. We we also, in that first episode, talked a little bit about some of the wildlife that you might be dealing with. So in terms of its spread of its natural range, how are how is this tree how is that seed vectored? Anything we need to know about how this tree moves on its own?

And then if we wanna maybe even play with a little bit of the seed ourselves, you know, what do we have to do?

Yeah. So I'll start at the back and work my way to the front of the question. In terms of playing with the seed, I will pull out another prop that I didn't pull out in the episode last time, but I've got bags of seed here from American wild type, unimproved native persimmon stock right here in this bag. They're pretty small. I don't know.

Maybe an inch long and half an inch wide. And, this is Deospyros virginiana. This says native wild persimmon. And it's in the fridge because it requires a vernalization period. So that's a cold exposure period.

Right? Vernalization or stratification? I always mix those two up.

I can't remember. Stratification is what I what I call when it comes to seed exposure.

Yeah. So what I wanna say is it requires a cold period. It requires exposure to winter conditions, and that's embarrassing that I don't know the difference between those two words right now. But It's

been a long time since school, Nick.

We Yeah.

We don't have to know those words every day.

Yeah. And then and then this right here are two seeds that I got from the John Rick improved cultivar persimmon variety that we talked about in the last show. And I don't know if it was easy to tell or not, but they're kind of bigger than the native wild type seed. And so those both require a cold period. I'm told you can throw them in some moist potting media in, like, a a cut off milk jug gallon outside.

Just let it get snowed on, rained on, whatever, poke some holes in the bottom for good drainage so it doesn't fill with water. But as long as they're in, you know, a good couple inches of moist media, they will reliably sprout after two to four weeks. I think Teresa Brockman at Sunny Lane Aronia Farm said that she has them in flats with holes with a couple inches of potting media in them. And then once they sprout, she is able to plant them out. Those are just, again, the the native unimproved wild type, nonimproved cultivar trees.

So that's how we need to play with them as you as you put it to sprout them and maybe consider growing those wild type trees. What was the other part of your question?

The vector. Who's moving these things around besides us?

Yeah. There we go. So, yeah, definitely squirrels are the number one competitor for Teresa's fruit at her farm, but deer absolutely love these things. And probably raccoons and possums and anything else that is wandering about the forest floor that likes to eat vegetation or fruits, eat the seeds and then poop them out wherever they go. And there we have our vectoring method of persimmon spread out in forest ecosystem.

Excellent.

Birds as well. Bigger, larger birds, probably like crows and other things will will occasionally eat them and fly away and distribute them.

So now let's do our myths, folklore, whatever you wanna call it. So the one that well, I guess you hear both these pretty common. But one is that persimmons require frost in order to ripen. So I guess since we're under folk folklore, we're saying that's not true, but is that true?

Yeah. Yeah. Again, the the myth being that persimmons require frost to ripen. Yeah. Not true.

There are many varieties of persimmon. Again, the varieties that Teresa grows here in Woodford County, Evelyn, John Rick, and Morris Burton. All of those ripen well before the first frost. I think Morris Burton may be the latest ripening one, but it's somewhere like October. Not to say we can't get a frost in October, of course, but definitely not required.

These John Ricks were harvested well before we got our first frost, and I'm eating them right now. I can happily tell you they did not require a frost to be ripe. They're delicious. That said, there are cultivars like we mentioned in the first show that have been improved specifically to be late dropping persimmons either because we like them in persimmon pudding and other treats around the holidays or specifically to drop during the rut for deer hunting wildlife food plots, etcetera. So while frosts may hasten the ripening process, if they're still on the trees when they when they do experience a frost, not necessary.

But it probably helps.

Well, the I know the one that I hear a lot, especially when persimmons come up, they always say, well, did you cut into it? Know, what is it predicting in terms of the weather? Know? And then they bring up utensils. Can we talk about the different utensils we're supposed to see in these persimmons and and does the corresponding implement of of of eating food, does that correspond to the type of winter that we will have?

Yeah. So you're referring to the cutting open of the persimmon seeds in you know, I I haven't tried it in the improved variety. I've only done it in the unimproved, like wild type varieties. But you're referring to the process of cutting the seed lengthwise and opening up the seeds like a book and then seeing whether or not you can see this thing that people refer to. Yeah.

So I found out about this as well. I had to try it. I was gonna have our master gardeners actually do the cutting, and then I realized that I didn't wanna do any first aid that day. So I decided to cut all the seeds myself and just give people seeds to look at. Only only nicked myself once.

And, yeah, I can typically see or it is said that you can typically see a fork, a knife, or a spoon in the kind of embryo portion of the seed when you cut it open. So you'll see a darker kind of gray portion of the seed and then a lighter white part of the seed. And where those two colored nexus points meet is usually where you'll see those shapes. Again, I need to go back to my one zero one plant biology, like portions of the seed nomenclature. Sorry, folks.

Got that wrong. But or I'm just blanking today. But in any case, yeah, typically, you can see something that kinda looks like a fork, a knife, or a spoon. And what the heck does that mean? Well, the consensus is a fork typically signifies or it is said that it will bring about a mild winter that'll start late and end early.

And so the fork means everybody will eat just fine that winter and not starve to death, which is good. We don't want anybody starving to death. A spoon shape typically signifies a heavy snowfall winter, which requires lots of shoveling, hence the spoon, it said. And then last but not least, the knife. The knife typically means that we'll have a super cold winter, but it won't be very snowy.

It'll be one of those dry, terrible, gray, less precipitous winters where we have a lot of cutting wind, which is my least favorite winter.

Mhmm. Yes. Yeah. I don't like those. Those cause a lot more damage to other plants, insects, the the whole gamut of things.

Yeah. We we do like having snow cover on those dry not dry, on those cold bitter days, we want snow cover. Yeah.

And in terms of whether or not they do actually tell the the truth and if that's what we'll see, I will only share that in our Master Gardener activity, we cut open by we, I mean, I cut open about 25 seeds. And I think I got about two or three forks, three or four knives, and the rest were spoons. And so far, that's been borne out by the type of winter we've had. And I guess we're not officially in winter yet. We're still technically in fall.

So I don't know how where the demarcation point is for this for this folklore or or how accurate it is. I'm sure there's somebody somewhere that's actually tried to track this over, like, a decade to see if it kinda correlated. It's a it's a myth. It's an old old wives' tale, whatever you wanna call it. But I guess, anecdotally, it it's been borne out by what we've seen this winter so far.

So we'll check back in in March when winter ends and see if it was a spoon type winter as it's been foretold. What if it's a spork? And, yeah, that's that's another thing too. They're not they're not all that easy to demarcate sometimes. There were actually quite a few half seeds that showed nothing or or yeah.

Like a a spoon with a couple of points. In in those cases, those were if you look on the Internet, you'll see pictures and and typically the forks will be kind of spork like. I have yet to see something that looks actually like like a fork. They usually have two points instead of four. So anybody's guess whether or not I'm actually identifying the the embryos correctly.

But it is interesting. And and there are there are other, not myths, but kinda pieces of folklore or interesting facts about wild type persimmons in the past that I didn't share with you guys in the in the notes for today that I'm looking at right now. One in particular stuck out to me is something worth sharing, which is during the civil war, apparently, the the union was blockading all the ports along the Eastern Seaboard, Southern Seaboard, Gulf Coast to restrict supplies getting into the Confederate war effort. And so, you know, they're native to mostly the Southeast United States, And roasted persimmon seeds apparently were ground to make something kinda tasting like coffee. And the seeds themselves were also sometimes used as durable buttons because they are dang hard.

So, yeah, that's that's pretty cool. I thought that was interesting to share. So

Well, I think that was all the folklore that we had, all the the myths, the wives' tales. But I I would say if anyone listening, watching, if you got anything else, throw that in the chat. You know, there's other regional associations, I think, with this very this this this plant that is very much tied to our histories here in The States. So, yeah, please throw that down in the chat.

And we've got a, you know, extension nutrition and wellness team in Illinois, but so does every other state. Or they have something like that. Persimmons, I'm sure are full of vitamins and minerals that are probably hard to get from many other sources naturally in Illinois or in the wild in general. So I'd be fascinated to learn more about, you know, the nutritional components of persimmons. I know not very much about that, but eating fruits and vegetables is good for you.

Just find that that ripe persimmon because I I have yet to do that. That is my my journey now. But the good ones, I mean, right, Nick? They're super sweet. They're like one of the sweetest things, the fruits that you can eat.

Yeah. When we are done with this podcast, I'm gonna eat my example, American persimmon, which in the time of recording this has thawed and is now jelly like in my hands. And I'm There you go. Salivating, waiting to eat it because I know what it tastes like. Yeah.

It's it's so strange that trees grow basically jelly in a little sack. Like, gelatinous a gelatinous amazing tasting fruit that is one of the most inedible things to eat if you try and eat it not ripe, but is one of the most enjoyable if you can just wait. So it's yeah. It never ceases to amaze me.

So if we wanna learn more about persimmons, is there any do have any suggestions on where we can look for more information?

Yeah. Definitely. So like I mentioned in the first, there is a podcast. I believe it's from Missouri Extension, Missouri State Extension by my friend and colleague, Patrick Byers, who is a retired horticultural field specialist with Missouri Extension. And I think it's called something very close to all about pawpaws and persimmons, where he details both of those crops.

They're they're similar in many ways, and so we'll try and link that in the show notes for folks. I would also have folks look into Cliff England. He's one of the private mom and pop orchardists, plant breeders, plant breeder enthusiasts that are responsible for a large chunk of the DIY or, yeah, ongoing persimmon breeding programs. Claypool is another name as well. I'm forgetting his first name.

I think I said it in the first first episode, but Claypool, Lehman, there's a cultivar called Lehman's Delight that's named after another persimmon breeder. Cornell has had persimmon breeding projects in the past. Savannah Institute in Wisconsin and Illinois are currently breeding persimmons for even better cold tolerance and flavor profile and larger fruit. And I'm sure I'm forgetting many more. There is a University of Connecticut Climate Smart Orcharding handout that I believe includes information and guidance on persimmon cultivation as well and on and on.

So definitely look up some extension resources featuring persimmon, and you're sure to learn more even beyond what was covered in in our podcast today or last time.

Well, that was a lot of great information about Persimmon kind of folklore and and also just a good follow-up to our episode from a couple weeks ago. So if you wanna watch that one in full detail, we will have a link back down below in our show notes. Well, the Good Growing podcast is a production of University of Illinois Extension, headed to this week by me, Chris Enroth. Hey, Nick. Thanks for coming back in such short order to talk about Persimmon folklore and to put a nice little cap on our our year of the Good Growing podcast.

Thanks for being here. Really appreciate it.

Yeah. Thanks for having me back on, and I'm always interested to talk about eclectic and interesting fruits and vegetables and other plants with you guys. It's always a treat. Happy 2026. Happy

2026. We are the duo to talk about weird plants. So and speaking of duo, thank you, Ken, for being here once again to chat about the the often perceived myths, folklore of Persimmon's.

Yes. Yeah. Thank you again, Nick. This was great, and happy New Year everybody. And Chris, let's do this again next year.

Oh, we shall do this again next year. We're gonna be talking about all sorts of fun, good horticultural hijinks. We're gonna get into lots of lots of good fun mischief. Right, Ken? We'll we'll we'll we don't know what we're doing yet.

Honestly, folks, we're we got holiday brain right now.

It'll be good.

It'll be great. Yes. Alright. Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best and that is listening or if you watched us on YouTube watching. And as always, keep on growing.

Alright. Wow. Two episodes. One day. Nick, thank you for putting in the overtime.

Now we can do a whole another episode if you need a drink

of coffee. Do a wardrobe change?

No. Yeah. Let's do it.

Yeah. We could. I do have a sweater.