Todd Gleason: 00:07

This is a bonus edition of the Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Podcast. I'm University of Illinois Extension's Todd Gleeson. Today, corn, ethanol, conservation, and a conversation. We'll talk with Jon Doggett. He is the former CEO at the National Corn Growers Association and serves now as the principal at Camas Creek Consulting.

Todd Gleason: 00:30

I asked Jon to tell us just a little bit about himself and his background.

Jon Doggett: 00:35

Sure. Sure. My name is Jon Doggett. And by the way, Jon is spelled j o n. Doggett is d o g g e t t.

Jon Doggett: 00:44

And I am, the principal and entire staff of Camas Creek Consulting LLC, a, and, I'm mostly retired after being, the CEO of the National Corn Growers and working with, three different ag trade associations in Washington, DC over thirty some years. People ask me, you know, I well, you know, by going to DC in in 1988 in January 1988, I went to Washington DC from Montana to work for Montana congressman, Ron Marlinay. And my wife and I told my parents and her parents parents that we were taking their two lovely grandchildren from them for two years, five at the most, and they were coming back home to Montana. That was 1988. I retired two years ago.

Jon Doggett: 01:33

Math is hard.

Todd Gleason: 01:37

Well, if you've tried to do 45 z, it is hard.

Jon Doggett: 01:41

It it enabled me to do to do some of that. Yeah.

Todd Gleason: 01:44

Right. Right. Right. Okay. So a a couple of things.

Todd Gleason: 01:48

You've already given me a little bit about your background, so so that's fine. Can you spell the name of your consulting group?

Jon Doggett: 01:56

Okay. It's Camas, c a m a s, Crick. And I'm from Montana, and we pronounce the the name of streams correctly. C r e e k is Crick in Montana. And, that comes from, Camas Creek Cattle And Sheep Ranch, in Central Montana.

Jon Doggett: 02:17

That's where I grew up on that ranch, and, my family was there for five generations. And, so that's where I grew up, a hundred miles in the nearest stoplight, and, went to the University of Montana and then got out, sold real estate for a while, and then got in the farm equipment industry in the in the early and mid eighties, which was just a grand time to be in the farm equipment industry.

Todd Gleason: 02:43

And And particularly out west. Yes.

Jon Doggett: 02:45

Yeah. And and so I went from I went from a, a district for Alice Chalmers that sold a 25 combines a year to selling six because we, you know, we went we had the pick program and a drought in the same year. And, so, I was a stock broker for a short time and then a friend of mine called me and said that the congressman was looking for somebody to do his ag stuff, and, so went to Washington, DC, worked for the congressman, for three years. He was a senior Republican on the House Ag Committee, he was the ranking Republican on the Wheat, Feed Grains, and, Oil Seeds Subcommittee, and the chairman of that subcommittee was a guy by the name of Dan Kligman. And, so then I worked for the, National Cattlemen's Association for about a year.

Jon Doggett: 03:36

I was at, the Farm Bureau for eleven years, just over sixteen years running the DC office for the National Corn Growers and then a little over four years as the CEO.

Todd Gleason: 03:48

On that on that note, we do wanna talk about conservation today. And I that, you know, in the grand scheme, it a lot of this is related to what happened in the thirties, again, the droughts that we we have experienced in the last four decades. And I'm wondering why you think it is important, to adopt conservation and climate smart practices.

Jon Doggett: 04:17

Well, first of all, you're you're correct. Agriculture is used, been been in partnership with the federal government since the nineteen thirties on conservation efforts. It has been a very good investment, for the taxpayer. It has made our agriculture industry in this country, the great, the great thing that it is. But, as I said, you know, I I've worked for the American Farm Bureau back in the in the '6 or, excuse me, in the nineties, And I was the guy that dealt with climate change and the Kyoto Protocol and cap and trade and all of those things, and I think people might remember where the Farm Bureau was then, inalterably opposed.

Jon Doggett: 04:58

We don't believe there is climate change, you know, and we fought it tooth and tongue. And, and we were wrong. But there were a lot of people wrong back in the nineties about about this subject. And, you know, I I tell my friends in the environmental community, they never made it easy for us to be with them, and they we never made it easy for them to to be with us. And we did not find ways to work through that.

Jon Doggett: 05:27

And so as time's gone on and looking at how the climate has changed in this country, my wife and I have owned a house down here in Tallahassee for the last nine years. Seeing what goes on down here, what goes on in Montana, what goes on around the world, Very apparent that the climate is changing. And, you know, back in the in the nineties, farmers thought climate was changing, at a at a percentage much less than the, general population. Now farmers and ranchers believe that there's climate change at a percentage much greater than the general, population. We missed some opportunities since the the early and late nineties.

Jon Doggett: 06:13

We've missed a lot of opportunities. We've had twenty years of talking at one another, yelling at one another. And so we're we're gradually getting to a point where there's some opportunities in this space for farmers, for the environment, for those small communities that are so dependent on having farmers that make a little money, on the outside of town. Those are important things. And so this is a this is an opportunity for me to work with a lot of different folks to say, you know, we were we didn't approach this the right way years ago, and now we're going to take try something new.

Jon Doggett: 06:57

I've worked for three different ag trade associations. I've worked with farmers and ranchers all my life. They want voluntary incentive based programs that allow them to to take a little bit of a risk, to try something different, to embrace some new technologies. And you know what? Everybody wins when we do that.

Jon Doggett: 07:18

And we finally have some money through the Inflation Reduction Act, passed a couple years ago by the congress, and we're gonna have some money now to transform US Agriculture. This isn't money to deal with low prices and high input costs, and we do need to deal with that. That's really, really important. We need to have a strong title one in the next farm bill, because people are hurting. But this other money, that's long term money.

Jon Doggett: 07:50

That's a long term investment. It's five years, with $3,000,000,000. Think of the things that we can do with that money, that partnership between the landowner and the operator and the and the American taxpayer who wants to work with us. And I think we have some great opportunities, not only to have some new ag economic practices, but to open up new markets, new opportunities to to put some more stability in that farming operation and put some more stability into the the local community that supports that farm. We have some wonderful opportunities, but it's sure taken us a long time to get there.

Todd Gleason: 08:33

There is a hill to climb, a capital hill to climb here, where that IRA money looks like it might need or want to be used in the way you just told us that probably you would prefer it not be used. You'd you'd I'm guessing want to continue to use it as the investment side

Jon Doggett: 08:56

for

Todd Gleason: 08:57

the long term rather than to offset short term issues within the farm economy as prices have come down and farmers are trying to catch up on the input side and being buried by some of those capital investments. Can you keep Capitol Hill on track to separate those funds?

Jon Doggett: 09:21

You know, I being in Washington for thirty five years, I I found over time, I I I made prognostications at great peril. And certainly, in the current political situation, I, you know, I can't forecast that. I I I don't know. I would hope that we could, and I think, had this program started two years earlier than it did because we're just seeing the first tranche of money come in the last year or so. Had we had two years more experience in that program by now, I think we would have more to show folks to say, here's what that money is doing.

Jon Doggett: 10:02

Here's the investments that are being made. Here's the return. Here is what is happening. It isn't all about the environment. I know that in certain quarters, climate change is still a bad phrase, but this is part of it.

Jon Doggett: 10:17

But the other part of it is improving soil health, improving agronomic practices, getting yields up with fewer inputs, and having some profit, having some new markets. And those are, you know, if if you cast this as, they're throwing money at farmers again, we we we need to take that and redirect that to title one or something else or put that down for savings, you know, I think we're gonna miss an opportunity. Right now, we have all of this money in incentive based voluntary programs. If we throw that money away, we could have another administration come along that wants to do the same thing, but if they're not going to do it with incentives, they're going to do it with regulations. Let's let the American taxpayer catch agriculture doing great things for not only agriculture, but for the country and for the world.

Jon Doggett: 11:11

And we have an opportunity here if we use this money wisely and and and start that transformation. Agriculture is transforming all the time. It's amazing the the innovation that it goes on in on farms and ranches around this country. We can accelerate that and greatly benefit from it.

Todd Gleason: 11:32

Can you reach back through, your history and and tell me what it may be that you learned during, the transition period to prior to the build out of ethanol, trying to build the coalitions that created the RFS across environmental and farm groups, which, as you have already told us, oftentimes made it very difficult for themselves to work with each other. What what did you learn there that can be applied today for the collaborative efforts of, farm groups and environmental groups and others that would be interested in these conservation practices.

Jon Doggett: 12:16

I, I remember one of my early mentors saying, when you go to Capitol Hill, you're not there to solve your problem. Nobody cares about your problem. Help somebody else solve their problem, and if it helps you, all the better. We have to build coalitions, and we've been good at building coalitions from time to time. Some of those coalitions have lasted, and and gone through some tough times and and come, out out of okay.

Jon Doggett: 12:46

You know, the the the relationships that we have built with the environmental community, the conservation community, and I'm not talking about the wild crazy environmental community. I'm talking about the more mainstream folks that do understand that if you want conservation on a on on farm grounds, you gotta work with the farmer. And, there there have been some really good, coalitions, partnerships through the years, and they get better some years and not so good the next year. We've also built some really good coalitions with the hunger community. And remembering some of those early days with GMO technology, and because we had a relationship with some of the hunger groups, they called me and said, can you come talk to our folks about GMO technology?

Jon Doggett: 13:35

I had 70 people in a room talking about GMO technology and had nearly unanimous acceptance after I got done explaining things for fifteen minutes. When we had fuel versus food back in 2012, again, the hunger community said, what's going on? And we went and explained to them what was going on and and how ethanol was not taking food from people. That was a re that's a that's a a relationship that benefited agriculture tremendously because those folks were on our side. We worked with the petroleum industry in the first, energy bill back in the early two thousands, and, it along with the coal industry and the nuclear folks and everybody else in the energy space.

Jon Doggett: 14:24

The next, energy bill we did, we worked with the environmental community and made even more gains. So, you know, those those relationships are important. You have to have the relationship before you can have the partnership. And, when you walk into a room with a partner, that is really, really powerful. I I locks and dams.

Jon Doggett: 14:49

I tell you what, I gotta give a lot of credit to the Illinois corn growers. They have done a great job working on locks and dams with the carpenters union. I remember going in with some carpenters and some farmers into congressional offices, and they they wondered what was going on. Those are good things that happen. So we have to have those those relationships, those partnerships, and, you have to help the other person solve their problem as well.

Jon Doggett: 15:17

We need to remember that the top 10 corn growing states in this country, and that includes Illinois, which has a large congressional delegation, those top 10 states have 94 house members in the house of representatives, a House that has 435 members. I'm not good at math, but 218 is 50% plus one in the House of Representatives. If you only have 94 votes, you're gonna have to figure out how you're gonna get more to go ahead and help out the corn industry. So you have to have partnerships, and you have to have it with with the SNAP recipients, and you have to have it with the environmental community, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, and, and even working with the grain industry.

Todd Gleason: 16:04

So how do you build those partnerships for conservation? And and who should farmers look to? Which organizations do they need to be thinking about? And what is it that those organizations need or want? And do you have to ask them?

Todd Gleason: 16:19

How do you figure all of that out?

Jon Doggett: 16:22

Well, I, you know, I think it's it's, do you have a relationship with your local local rod and gun club? That's where a lot of this conservation starts. It starts it doesn't start with, some lobbyist in an environmental organization inside the Capitol Beltway. It oftentimes starts with, you know, the principal at the local grade school who likes to hunt and fish and who, you know, they have a a rod and gun club, and then, you got folks up and down Main Street that belong to that, and they're interested in hunting and fishing, and that means they're interested in conservation, and work with local landowners. That's where a lot of this stuff starts.

Jon Doggett: 17:05

I think we make it too complicated by making it, you know, the the local relationships always in the end is the that's the best place to start that that that conversation and that movement, because that's where that's where the real political power in this country still still lies.

Todd Gleason: 17:27

Interesting. I'm wondering how much of a problem it has become across agriculture as the size of farms have increased and those who operate the farms have isolated themselves because of the size of their farms.

Jon Doggett: 17:51

Yeah. It's exactly it. And and more and more land is held by fewer and fewer people. There are more smaller farmers, the hobby farmer, the, you know, the whatever. That middle group, the ones who are who are commercially sized, but they're not big.

Jon Doggett: 18:11

And the it gets it gets hard. And and I remember we had been at several concerted efforts to get those really big farmers more involved to, one, get them involved in corn growers, and, two, get them to get them to be active. And that was hard because those folks, they have a different agenda, and, they look at it as a business, and everybody else is looking at it as a lifestyle. And I I think both need to change, but the the big, big farmers are not participating in the corn growers or farm bureau or farmers union or, you know, those other organizations. And and we need more of them there, but, you know, they are looking at some of these things as they can handle that stuff themselves.

Todd Gleason: 19:00

When in fact, these kinds of regulations, they probably cannot.

Jon Doggett: 19:05

No. No. They can't. And, yeah. I it it's it's the transformation, has been ongoing for millennium, and and it will continue to do so.

Jon Doggett: 19:20

Back in 1960, the state of Iowa had six members of the house of representatives. Arizona had three. Iowa now has three. Arizona has, I don't know, 17. In the sixties, Florida had, I think, oh, fourteen, fifteen.

Jon Doggett: 19:45

Now they have, oh, nearly 30. So who was I I asked farm groups, who's responsible for that? You know? Wasn't Barack Obama. It wasn't Bill Clinton.

Jon Doggett: 19:59

The reason that happened was how many farmers are farming today that are farming two, three, four, five farms that were operated by somebody else that owned that ground back in the sixties? Those folks sold out, and they moved to Arizona or Florida.

Todd Gleason: 20:19

And, you

Jon Doggett: 20:19

know, our our political power has waned, and I think sometimes we've let it wane. There was there is no farm vote anymore, and and and people will take exception to that. But, I spent most of 2023 and a lot of 2024 in Montana. We had a senate race there. John Tester, the incumbent democrat, a farmer, was running against a a guy who is somewhat of a newcomer to Montana.

Jon Doggett: 20:51

They spent $250,000,000 in that race in a state with just over a million people, The most expensive per capita race in history. And I did not see a single ad about agriculture. Not a single ad. I saw plenty about the, this, drag show at Malstrom Air Force Base in Great Falls, and that's what they wanted to talk about. We don't have an ag vote.

Jon Doggett: 21:21

We have a, you know, we have a rural vote, and the rural vote is not always following the ag vote. And I, we need to push more on ag issues with the rural communities. And that's hard because as you said, some of those big folks, they've isolated themselves. And, you know, you you you need you need to run into those folks after church on Sunday or at the coffee shop or, at the at the football game, the high school football game. That's where, you know, those interactions take place.

Jon Doggett: 21:56

But, we're we're more and more centered on social issues rather than than ag issues, and and we we need to get our issues more in front of more people.

Todd Gleason: 22:09

Now related to the RA funding, what when farmers are out and they're actually talking to their peers in their community, should they be discussing with them as it's related to conservation funding, climate smart agriculture, the things that might be worthwhile to have on the farm or to be regulated into one of the two? Well, you

Jon Doggett: 22:36

know, we we want incentive based voluntary programs, and, and let's make them work. And, some of these programs are really working well. We haven't had enough time to really be able to point to, the things I think we'll be able to point to in another, twelve, eighteen months, but we're making some progress. And, you know, somebody somebody asked me, a couple months ago, how do farmers learn about new methods and new technologies? And I said, it's over the fence.

Jon Doggett: 23:14

You're driving down the road at what are what are the Joneses doing there? They're doing something different. Man, that that stand of corn looks really good, but they're doing something different. What are they doing? Maybe I wanna try that as well.

Jon Doggett: 23:27

I think sometimes those are the best ways that technology gets exposed to other farmers.

Todd Gleason: 23:32

How can farmers ensure their voices are heard when shaping policy in DC, especially for this upcoming farm? Berliet is on a very tight tight timeline now again.

Jon Doggett: 23:46

What I what I told farmers over the years was, almost all of us have raised kids. All of us had this discussion with kids. You need to figure out what it is that you need versus what it is that you want. And I've seen farm groups in Washington going with a long list of things that they wanted. They didn't prioritize.

Jon Doggett: 24:11

They didn't designate what it was that they absolutely needed. And so they left got left by the wayside. Work within your ag organizations. Help develop that policy. But, again, what is it that you need versus what you want?

Jon Doggett: 24:27

What is politically doable? And that's where I think we we really need, and I'm not at all biased. That's where you've gotta count on your Washington folks, your lobbyist in Washington, DC, many of whom come from farms and ranches, about what's politically possible. Again, we don't have the numbers. So if we're going in to talk about a policy that agriculture needs, we also need to very be very vocal, very clear, and very articulate about what that policy will do for others, not just farmers, but rural communities and the greater good of this of this country.

Jon Doggett: 25:07

And when we do that, then we get noticed and solve somebody else's problems, and bring votes to the party. If you can bring a vote, you're probably likely to have a seat at the table.

Todd Gleason: 25:21

In this case, why is it that American agriculture needs the conservation policies?

Jon Doggett: 25:26

Well, you we are going to have conservation on farms and ranches no matter what the federal government does because farmers and ranches will do the right thing. But we can get them to do more of that if there's some financial assistance, if there is some risk mitigation in in that, and if we can go ahead and improve soil health or we can, you know, we can open another market. Conservation programs, particularly the ones outlined in the, Inflation Reduction Act, they are there to create opportunities. This isn't government writing a check. This is these are farmers and ranchers and landowners saying, I'm gonna try this.

Jon Doggett: 26:13

We're gonna work this out. We're gonna have a partnership, and everybody's gonna benefit from this. This is a this is an everybody benefits kind of a thing, and we have this great potential to, one more time, spotlight the great things that agriculture is doing with a fairly small investment on the part of the taxpayer.

Todd Gleason: 26:35

What do policymakers often myths understand about agriculture and conservation?

Jon Doggett: 26:40

I think that too often, conservation is it's a black and white thing. If you don't have any money, no no conservation is gonna happen. If you have a lot of money, well, you know, who knows what's gonna happen. But, again, I I think policymakers miss the boat in that they don't understand how rapidly technology is evolving on on our farms. What I do with non ag audiences and and, you know, I I have I have spent my career, explaining away notions that were thirty years, old, but I've I'll hold up my cell phone and say, how many of you had a cell phone thirty years years ago?

Jon Doggett: 27:20

Or how many of you had a cell phone ten years ago? And everybody's hand raises. And I said, okay. How many of you had the same cell phone you had ten years ago? Everybody raises their hand.

Jon Doggett: 27:30

I say, so why did you get a new cell phone then? The old one break? No. I wanted the new technology. And I said, well, why didn't you get the new technology when you bought the first one?

Jon Doggett: 27:41

Well, it wasn't existing then. If technology in your cell phone has evolved that much in the last ten years, why do you think technology on a farm has not evolved every bit as fast or faster? I think people are not understanding the intensity of that transformation. I don't think they understand the ability of the American farmer to be innovative and to to solve a lot of problems, and they're doing it without getting much notice. So, you know, I I think we I think we really need to let policy makers know what's going on on the farm.

Jon Doggett: 28:19

We work with the, National Association of Equipment Manufacturers, and they started bringing, farm equipment, on the the mall in front of the capitol. And I tell you what, when you can get some 25 year old congressional staffer, representing, working for a congressman who represents no farms at all, when that 25 year old staff person crawls into a a combine and starts looking at the technology, That's a gee whiz moment, and then people start asking more questions. I love those kinds of things.

Todd Gleason: 28:52

If you had a message to share with farmers about engaging in conservation policy, what would it be?

Jon Doggett: 28:59

Quit talking to ourselves. We talk to ourselves too much. We we, you know, it's easy to go to the coffee shop or the County Farm Bureau meeting or the whatever, and and we get in an echo chamber. I tell folks, you know, we wanna explain agriculture, but what do people wanna know? I I I remember one time I took a farmer up to Capitol Hill and and a a non ag office.

Jon Doggett: 29:31

And, the young staff person was real young and, you know, eager. And this farmer starts talking about row spacing and seed count when he was planting. And that kid had absolutely no interest in knowing the difference between 28,000 seeds per acre versus 32, and what are you gonna do with the spacing on on corn rows? That wasn't what we needed to talk about. What that what that person wanted to know was, what is it you're doing on your farm that benefits this country?

Jon Doggett: 30:07

That's what they need to hear. We need to talk and we and then when we have conversations, let's listen. Let's not assume people wanna know certain things. I my my daughter's father-in-law is a retired pediatrician here in in Tallahassee. I I've learned to just be quiet and have him ask me questions because he asked me questions that, are really interesting.

Jon Doggett: 30:32

And most of the stuff I know, he doesn't care about. He wants to know about bird flu and what what agriculture is doing about bird flu. He wants to know about use of antibiotics. He wants to know a lot of things. And and and that's been we I can communicate better with agriculture when I listen more than I talk, which is hard for a Washington lobbyist.

Todd Gleason: 30:56

Hey. Speaking of of that note, how is it that farmers can best connect with their legislators? I have an idea of what you're gonna tell me because I've seen all of you in action enough, which is you march into their office directly and talk to them. But how do you suppose that they really should engage them?

Jon Doggett: 31:16

We used to teach a a leadership class, and one of the the main things for part of the one of the sessions is how to talk to your your legislator. And you know what? Every congression every house district house member and every senator, they have district offices and state offices. You probably as I've told, I I remember I I told, a group of farmers, you know, find out where the local district office is for your your congressman, And then just walk in someday and say, I my name is Joe Smith, and I farm on the edge of town. And here's just wanna let you know that, we appreciate what the congressman did or didn't do or whatever.

Jon Doggett: 31:59

And, by the way, feel free to give me a call. And if you ever wanna stop by the farm and take a take a farm visit, glad to have you there. And I had a farmer call me up one day, and he said, you know what? I drove by that district office for my local congressman for the last fifteen years. I didn't realize it was there, and he said it's the right the drought on the route between my farm and the and the elevator where I deliver my corn.

Jon Doggett: 32:23

So, you know, there's a lot of opportunities. Unfortunately, and and, we used to be members of congress used to have listening sessions, they had town meetings, fewer and fewer of those folks fewer and fewer that less and less of that is happening, which is unfortunate, but there are members of congress who have town hall meetings show up, And, you know, if if you think that, folks are pushing Medicare and and Social Security too hard over farm issues, don't say, well, I can't go to the that meeting with the congressman because it's during the middle of the day, and the only people that show up for those things are retired people. You know? We we you need to show up. You just need to show up, and, you know, we just got done with, with an election, and the next election is just around the corner, and any year divisible by the number two, you're gonna have an opportunity to talk to some of those folks that watch your your vote.

Jon Doggett: 33:26

I'd get in and start talking to them. You gotta build that relationship bit by bit. You don't can't just walk in and say this is what I want and expect them to say great. Thank you very much. Yeah.

Jon Doggett: 33:39

It's, it's building a relationship, and it's building a relationship with those staff people and with the member as well. The staff people come and go, but, you know, start building those relationships and become the trusted person that those folks can reach out to for good information. When I went to work for the congressman, I had a short list, but the congressman gave me another one. He said, these are 10 people I want you to call at least once a month. They were scattered all over the state of Montana, but I was required to call them at least once a month, and then there was a shorter list I called every other week.

Jon Doggett: 34:14

And I added to that list. But slowly, I I had a list of people that I could count on if I called them up and said, tell me the real story here. I got the real story. And guess what? When they told me the real story and then we had other things to do, I listened to them.

Todd Gleason: 34:33

A couple of final questions to wrap this up, coming back to the conservation funding. In the IRA, how much funding is there for conservation, first off? And then secondly, as it's related to the farm bill, what message do producers, farmers, those who are interested in comfort in conservation take to those legislators when they walk into those offices?

Jon Doggett: 35:03

We're looking at $3,000,000,000 over five years. Seems like a lot of money, but, it's it seems like a lot of money. It is a lot of money, but it is money we have a short window here to access that program. We better do it. And, we have a lot of people who are starting in into that those programs.

Jon Doggett: 35:29

Hopefully, they will continue to be funded. But, we need this this is this is money that is a long term investment. And, certainly, we need more money in title one. We need more money in other aspects of the of the farm bill. But let's not rob Peter to pay Paul because sooner or later, Peter is gonna go ahead and get his way.

Jon Doggett: 35:55

And, again, let's not miss an a golden opportunity for a well funded incentive based voluntary program that could keep us from having to deal with a regulatory overload in years to come.

Todd Gleason: 36:09

Thank you very much, Jon. Jon Doggett is the principal at Camas Creek Consulting and past CEO at the National Corn Growers Association, joined us here on the Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Podcast. I'm University of Illinois Extension's Todd Gleeson.