Practical Advice on Conservation Implementation

Kathryn: 00:08

Hello, and welcome to the talking crop podcast. My name is Kathryn Seebruck, and I'm a Commercial Agriculture educator with University of Illinois Extension serving Jo Daviess, Stephenson, and Winnebago Counties. Talking Crop is a row crop production podcast with episodes occurring every other week during the growing season between May and September. In each episode, I bring on a guest speaker to discuss topics related to their areas of expertise. In today's episode, I am joined by two guests, those being Rachel Curry, an Illinois Extension educator who works on the nutrient loss reduction strategy, and Norm Dietz, a farmer in Ogle County who Rachel works with to implement conservation strategies on his farm.

Kathryn: 00:48

Rachel provides us with some background of the nutrient loss reduction strategy and details the work that she does with farmers like Norm to help them implement conservation strategies on their farms. And Norm offers valuable insight on the challenges and benefits of implementing these strategies. In the episode description, I've linked the Illinois Sustainable Ag Partnership's conservation story map, which can be utilized to identify and connect with individuals that are practicing sustainable agriculture, as well as links for the nutrient loss reduction strategies such as the NLRS website, podcast, and blog. The next episode of Talking Crop will also stray a bit off the beaten path as I will be joined by Travis Meteer, the Illinois Extension Beef Cattle specialist, who will be providing us with his advice on extending the grazing season and grazing cover crops. That episode will air on Wednesday, August 20.

Kathryn: 01:39

And now please enjoy this episode of Talking Crop: Practical Advice on Conservation Implementation with Rachel Curry and Norm Dietz. Norm and Rachel, thank you so much for joining me today for the Talking Crop podcast. I'm really glad and grateful that you both took some time out of your busy days to join me in a, a conversation about conservation. To get started, it'd be great if you both could introduce yourselves, probably starting first with Norm. Norm, can you please give us a little bit of your background and describe your operation?

Norm: 02:10

I will, but first thank you for inviting me to be a part of this. My farm is located in Southwest Corner of Ogle County. I actually border Whiteside County, and I have farmland in Carroll County as well. Pretty much a family farm of 700 acres. Of those 700 acres, currently I'm farming about 300 of that and renting out 400 of it.

Norm: 02:45

Most of that is in, in hay. There's a couple 100 acres rent to a conservation minded farmer as well. I started farming in 1985. I also had a job off the farm during most of that time until probably the last thirteen, fourteen years, which I've been retired from that job and working full time on the farm. Always been involved in conservation from that standpoint.

Norm: 03:27

When I started in 1985, I started by no tilling right away. Then about six, seven years ago, added cover crops to the operation. It's been a learning process the whole time. I got to give credit to my dad. He started conservation tillage, no tilling about 1980. He worked out a lot of the bugs and I've just refined it since 1985. So I think we did it. I think he did it to preserve the land, make the land better for my generation. I'm trying to do that for the generation behind me, although I don't think that they will be involved in farming.

Kathryn: 04:22

Thank you, Norm Rachel, could you tell us about your role in Extension and describe the work that you do kind of in general, but also the work that you do with farmers like Norm?

Rachel: 04:33

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I'm Rachel Curry. I am a statewide Agriculture educator with the University of Illinois Extension, and

Rachel: 04:43

I'm also part of Illinois Extension's Nutrient Loss Reduction Strategy team. Most of the work that I do centers around education outreach regarding our state strategy, agricultural conservation, and reducing nutrients leaving farmers' fields. I dabble in our urban stormwater sector. We've got a couple of people on our team that focuses on urban stormwater. When I can, I support the work that they do, and that includes providing educational programs for homeowners and communities on things like green infrastructure and how to reduce nutrient loss from our homes and our yards. What I really enjoy doing is being able to work with farmers throughout the state like Norm. And Norm is so great to work with because when we're doing our outreach programming and education programming and we're talking about these different conservation practices, it's really important to have a farmer who has actually implemented the practice to talk about their experience with that practice, as well as the lessons that they've learned and why they decided to adopt that particular practice within their operation. A lot of the outreach that our team does, we work really hard to include the farmer's voice in all of that because it's so important, especially to other farmers, to hear it firsthand about these different conservation practices. Some of the things that we do include doing farmer panels, which Norm was a part of our most recent farmer panel on cover crops. Then with other things like the NLRS podcast and blog that we have. And Norm, I actually met through a cover crop research project, and I got to know him really well through that. Knowing his passion for cover crops is why I asked him to be a part of our our cover crop panel because a lot of farmers, we hear them say that they're too far north to implement cover crops. To be able to bring in that voice of a farmer who is in the northern part of the state that says, yes, I'm doing it, and this is the success that I'm having doing it, is a really powerful voice. Through all of this, I can understand the science behind these conservation practices, but it's through conversations and the relationships that I've been able to develop with these farmers that I get to work with that I can have a better understanding of how these conservations impact the farmers' operation. Every time I talk to one of them, I learn more and more. At the end of the day, I really learn so much from these farmers. I hope in return through what I'm doing, they can learn a little bit from me too.

Kathryn: 07:43

That's wonderful, Rachel. A lot of what you said resonates with me for sure as a fellow educator. We can talk about science up and down all day every day, but it's that real world applied knowledge that farmers have and are involved in day to day that really drive home points for other farmers and it's that farmer to farmer education that really goes so far. Really great points there. Rachel, you had explained that you work with the nutrient loss reduction strategy.

Kathryn: 08:12

Can you dive into that a little bit and explain the nutrient loss reduction strategy for us?

Rachel: 08:17

Absolutely. the Nutrient Loss Reduction Strategy is oftentimes abbreviated NLRS. Both are a bit of a mouthful, but NLRS is a little bit easier to say. That's our state strategy to reduce nutrient loss from three primary sectors. We have our agricultural non point source sector, our point sources, which are typically our wastewater treatment facilities, and our urban stormwater.

Rachel: 08:46

Before I get too much into our state strategy, I think it's important to give a little bit of background as to why we have it. This all started with the Gulf Hypoxia Task Force, which was created in response to the dead zone in The Gulf, and that eventually led to the US EPA tasking the 12 highest contributing states to develop a strategy on how their state was going to reduce nutrients. We're primarily talking about nitrogen and phosphorus. How their state is going to reduce those nutrients leaving their state. This happened in 2011, and Illinois is one of those states. The Illinois Strategy was released in July 2015, and it was created through a collaborative effort by groups like the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency, the Illinois Department of Agriculture, as well as the University of Illinois. It's this collaborative effort. It was unique when the strategy was developed, but other states have recognized the value that we have with our partnerships and are adopting a similar model within their state. Illinois has an interim goal to reduce nitrate leaving the state by 15% and total phosphorus by 25% by the end of this year. There's also a 45% reduction goal of total nitrogen and total phosphorus that's part of the goals from the hypoxia task force, but Illinois has not adopted those or a date to reach that goal yet.

Kathryn: 10:25

You mentioned how there are point and non point sources. I know, with those, agriculture is considered, a non point source. Correct?

Rachel: 10:36

That is correct.

Kathryn: 10:38

With that, it's of course very important for producers to be familiar with the Nutrient Loss Reduction Strategy I take it, not just for the fact that it affects their operations personally, but also for the fact that it contributes to what your guys' goals are with the NLRS.

Rachel: 10:55

Correct. As I mentioned, our state's strategy currently addresses nutrient loads from three different sources. The plan is not saying that agriculture is the only source of nutrient loss, but recognizing that nutrient loss comes from multiple sectors and that they all have to be addressed in order for us to reach our goals. Yhy it's really important for producers to have an understanding of all of this is that there is a breakdown of the sources of nutrient loss, and that was part of our original strategy. in it, it has about 80% of the total nitrogen and nitrate nitrogen and about half of the phosphorus leaving the state that's attributed to agriculture. For agriculture, how we can start addressing this is through the adoption of best management practices, and those include things like cover crops and nutrient management, conservation tillage or no till, as well as what we call edge of field practices, things like constructive wetlands and bioreactors, to reduce the nutrients that are leaving their fields. Because it's not just an issue down in The Gulf. Nutrient loss impacts our local water bodies and our local water quality, and that is a big focus as to why it's so important. It's not just an environmental issue. Nutrient loss is also an economic issue, especially when we're talking about agriculture because a lot of the nutrients that are leaving the field, that's in the form of the fertilizers that farmers have spent a lot of money to put on their fields in order to maximize their yields. You're going to want to keep those nutrients in your field where you can get a return on that investment and not see it going down your tile drain.

Kathryn: 12:42

Yes. 100%. That's a really great point to make about the importance of this strategy and the goals that it aligns with. You mentioned how it's the adoption of conservation practices on producers' farms that can help contribute to reducing nutrient loss. Is that a lot of what you do as an educator is helping farmers learn about those practices and how they can best implement them on their operations?

Rachel: 13:10

That is definitely a big part of what I do. We have to recognize that adoption of these conservation practices is 100% voluntary. What we do when we're talking about these conservation practices is to be able to help farmers make the best decision about what works best in their operation. Because as we know, it's not going to be cookie cutter because every field is different and every farmer is different. Understanding how these different pieces can come together to help best support the farmer. It's also important to recognize that about 75% of our row crop acres in Illinois are rented, they're not owned by the farmer farming it. When that comes into play with conservation, you have to have an agreement with the landowner about adopting these conservation practices. Or if you're applying for cost share programs, you have to have the support of the landowner as well. So part of the work that I'm doing now is also to try and reach landowners to help them understand the role that they play in agricultural conservation and nutrient loss here in the state.

Kathryn: 14:19

Great. Yeah. That's a wonderful point to make is that it's landowners as well who need this type of education. To make those agreements, they need that information. For you to be able to provide that to that sector of folks is also really great. Norm switching gears a little bit here to you and your operation. The biggest question I have for you is, and you kind of alluded to it a little bit when you were giving us your background, can you talk about your motivation for using conservation practices? You talked about how you got that first from your father who wanted to better the land for the next generation. You have that same thought as well from what I gathered, correct?

Norm: 15:05

Correct. We talked about it going into a no till or conservation tillage and adding cover crops, you really have to have a goal. And what is your goal? Because there's a number of things that they say this is a benefit or this is a benefit. I don't know if they are or aren't, but you had to go to a goal.

Norm: 15:30

I went in with a single goal, and that was to control erosion because a lot of our problems started with erosion. Big heavy rains, you see muddy creeks, and there's a lot of fertilizer in that. Not only that, there's a lot of topsoil going in that, both very valuable commodities that we're just watching go down the streams. Erosion control was mine. I didn't want to fix gullies in the field, those type of things.

Norm: 16:09

I wanted to keep whatever water I got on that field and I didn't want it running off. I went in from that single purpose. How can I stop erosion? And no till worked. Like I said, I started no till in 1985. It just plateaued to a certain degree. You didn't seem to be able to stop erosion on harvested bean ground throughout the year if you had heavy rain events or the worst of all events where the frost would be coming out of the ground and we get a heavy rain, it would just cut right down to where the fall frost level was. Actually when they came up with cover crops and the thought of cover crops, I thought that was a great idea. And boy, did that kickstart the whole process. Not only did it kickstart, I think whatever was happening in my fields from a biological standpoint, but having that cover crop out there really stopped erosion.

Norm: 17:27

And that's what I was after. I was very happy at that point.

Kathryn: 17:31

Yeah, that's a huge benefit to these types of practices. And I thought it's interesting that you said that you had, you kind of chose your why up front and then you adapted, you wanted to stop erosion and you didn't utilize tillage. It's actually interesting because some of the farmers that I speak to, it's actually backwards where there were other kind of extraneous circumstances that led to them not tilling anymore and they just had the secondary benefit of the conservation. For example, one gentleman, he said unfortunately his grandfather had passed and they had one less person to do work on the farm and it was easier for them to stop tilling and they just never tilled since because they realized the benefits and another gentleman actually claimed that he's like, I just got lazy one year and I just didn't do it and he didn't do it ever since because again because of those benefits. It's interesting that yours was kind of the opposite of that but it's really important though too because that's what we preach with cover crop adoption is under knowing your why and your goal upfront because that can help you maintain that motivation to keep going in times of strife and during that trial and error process that typically comes with conservation.

Norm: 18:46

Yeah, because once you get going on that process, you can see some of the other underlying things that are helpful. You spoke to it, labor, time. I was working off side the farm. So not only was I stopping erosion, but now I was saving time. I was saving money with fuel and trips over the field.

Norm: 19:13

The other thing was I didn't have to have a lot of equipment or a lot of heavy equipment, big equipment. I could do it with pretty small power. All those seemed to fit well, which were side benefits to helping with the erosion.

Kathryn: 19:31

What do you think is maybe your biggest lesson learned when you first adopted these practices? Were there kind of big glaring things that you realized were like, Oh, this is working really well, or this is not going to work really well and I have to pivot. Did you have any kind of big picture lesson learned moments as you were adopting these practices?

Norm: 19:54

That's an interesting question. From the standpoint of when I say you save time maybe going back and forth in the tractor, but you had to put that time into management. You really had to step up your management as to how you were going to fertilize, the different ways you were going to fertilize, the timing of the fertilization, what could best benefit your crops. The biggest learning curve was it does take time to condition the soil. That's one thing I had no clue. But maybe the first year or two, when you're learning are tough, maybe the yield drops a little bit, maybe it doesn't, but then you see the steady progression as you hit the valley and the progression back up as far as yields go. Probably didn't realize what it took to convert fields have been conventionally tilled for how many years. Then all of a sudden, no tilling, there was that learning process. I think the other thing you're talking 1985 was the peer pressure. Oh my golly, your fields look dirty or it doesn't look clean. There's corn stalks.

Norm: 21:38

That was a little hard to overcome because a lot of people that didn't share your thoughts on erosion were, what do you think you're doing?

Kathryn: 21:50

Yeah. That's an that's an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about that as the like you said, peer pressure, maybe judgment from your neighbors who kinda maybe look at what you're doing and think, wow. They must be really messing things up over there. Right?

Kathryn: 22:02

But obviously in your mind that you're actually benefiting your operation more so than it might look like based on on optics.

Norm: 22:15

You know you've turned the corner because I had right next to me one farmer he tilled everything hard and he had looked to have good crops and then I would go in and I would no till, so mine would be completely opposite of his. But he was watching. He was older than I was. He was watching and he saw the water running down his corn rows. Then once he finally said I've been watching you, you take an awful lot of corn off of that field.

Norm: 22:50

How do you do that type of thing? But on the same point, he says, I'm not going to change.

Kathryn: 22:58

Oh, those listening can't see, but Rachel just kind of hung her head, shook her head at that response. Norm, you alluded there to the benefits that you started to realize after adopting these practices. Could you talk specifically about those benefits whether you saw them yourself or in that instance that you described, maybe others saw as well.

Norm: 23:26

I think as time went on and I talked no till I learned it, everything happened, the soil got conditioned. We're doing the right things with fertilizer, thought we were doing the right thing with fertilizer and timing, but it just hit a wall. My organic matter wasn't continuing to climb. It did early, but it plateaued. It was like, I asked soil agronomists what am I doing? What am I, I mean, I should be taking another step. No one could really help me with that. They didn't have the knowledge, but they couldn't really help me. I was k just out there wondering is the benefit over at this particular point in time. Then I started reading about cover crops and tried them with for the erosion standpoint, but holy smokes, did that jumpstart my soils to a whole new level. It's just been amazing. I can talk to the benefits of cover crop, but I'll leave it at that right now.

Kathryn: 24:48

Norm, Rachel had described a lot for us about the nutrient loss reduction strategy, and she brought up a really great point about how not only does it help from an environmental standpoint, but from an economic standpoint as well. As a farmer yourself, you spend a decent amount of money to apply fertilizer to your crops to obtain optimal yields. You don't want that to just wash off your farm. Right? Because that's money wasted. Have these conservation practices, do you think, the have helped with that aspect with that reduction of nutrient loss off your fields?

Norm: 25:26

That brings us to step two. Why did I do it with soil erosion? And again, farmers just didn't buy into it because that's not the way they've always done things. The second thing that I think is the biggest thing that a farmer has to realize, it's profit versus yield. Farmers want to grow the most bushels per acre because that's what sells at the coffee shop. We'll put whatever nutrients on that we need to do to get that bushels per acre. But what you find is when it's running off of the farm, it's all that nutrients you're putting on isn't going into raising those bushels. The next year it's well, I got to apply more nutrients versus thinking of what nutrients did I lose that now I'm trying to replace just so I can keep those bushels. You have to look at it from the standpoint as profit per acre. What's the least amount of fertilizer I can use and keep it where the corn can use it to help my operation? A number of things I changed. I used to put P and K on in the fall or winter, put it on frozen ground. What happens if you get a great rain on frozen ground? Probably not all that fertilizers been absorbed into the ground. What I've got to put it on closer to the crop.

Norm: 27:24

It was more convenient to put it on the fall and the winter, but now I put it on the spring as close to planting as I possibly can. So that corn can utilize it. The other thing is, I know a lot of people like to put on fall nitrogen and in their operations, the large sizes, I understand why they have to do that. But I found that again, I wanted to put my nitrogen on as close to when the crop could use it as possible. I put a lot of nitrogen through the planter to pop that corn up. Then I side dress the balance of my nitrogen when the corn is six leaf, whenever I can get that on. Again, the thought process is use less, get it to the crop when the crop needs it so I don't lose it.

Kathryn: 28:25

Those are some really great practices. And, like you said, you're not going to lose it that way. And it helps with keeping it on the farm. And of course, from an economic standpoint as well. You also mentioned how there's that contrast between yield versus profit and I think that's really great information for folks to keep in mind as well. Rachel, I wondered if you could speak a little bit to this concept too. Is it, such that when you talk to folks about these practices, do you also talk with them about that concept of yield versus profit and how that can help contribute to that nutrient loss reduction?

Rachel: 29:07

We definitely try and bring in the economics, not only about yield versus profit, but these conservation practices are not free, and they are not inexpensive either. We also try and bring in partners to talk about the different cost share opportunities or programs that are out there that can help offset some of these practices, especially when we're talking about cover crops. We know that after a given amount of time, and there's a lot of variables that play into how long it is before we start seeing some of these additional benefits. But there's still a cost that's associated with that. Trying to provide opportunities to help offset maybe some of those initial costs while the cover crop is doing its job and starting to create a better, improved soil health and that sort of thing. Those are definitely things that we try and bring in it when we're talking about these different practices.

Kathryn: 30:14

That's wonderful because I think that's a lot of the holdup for a lot of folks when it comes to adopting conservation strategies. I think there's a camp of people who understand the benefits and they're very intrigued by those benefits, but it's that economic standpoint that keeps them from making that jump, so to speak. Norm, I was hoping you could maybe talk a little bit about this since obviously you have found yourself in this situation. Like I was mentioning, many folks are apprehensive because of the economics, especially with cover crops. Do you have any advice for those who are hesitant because of this?

Kathryn: 30:55

And with that, have those cost share programs that Rachel mentioned, have those come into play on your operation at all?

Norm: 31:03

Well, I would say the economics and cover crops is the number one myth that needs to be busted. There is a number of programs out there that you can get involved with. You have to do a little management, you have to do a little research that really aren't that particularly onerous as far as free seed and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I would say for me that cover crops is kind of a profit center because you can get in so many particular programs that help you that it more than pays for the seed. It's to the point where it pays for the seeds and maybe even the labor to do it. Does it take a little work? Does it take a little research? Does it take a little reading? Absolutely does. But you can turn cover crops into a profit center. The bad part going forward, in my particular case, is I've been doing cover crops six, seven years. The new programs are coming out, basically say, well, if you've done cover crops before, we aren't going to help you. I don't know if that's the right thing that they do. I understand why they do that. They're trying to spread money out, but it seems like they penalize the person that has been doing it and rewarding the person that maybe does it for one year, gets the reimbursement and says, That's not for me

Norm: 32:49

and goes back to tillage. But it's a myth that it is an expense. You can make it a profit center. I'm not even talking about the benefits of fertilizer being regenerated through the cover crops and the biomass and the increase in the organic matter in your farm. I'm not even talking about that.

Norm: 33:26

I'm just talking about the pure dollars and cents that are available if you want to do the work to find it.

Kathryn: 33:33

I'm glad you mentioned that. I like to bring up to folks that it's not always a direct dollar amount benefit that you see, but it's the opportunity cost of having implemented these practices that also can contribute indirectly, but also eventually directly to your bottom line, right? So that's a really good point to make.

Norm: 33:56

It has made me so much more efficient with my fertilizer use and the crops I can grow with a limited amount of nitrogen that if they took all the money away for cover crops that you can have access to, I would still do it because my farming operation continues to profit from the use of cover crops.

Kathryn: 34:24

Norm, I wondered if you could, maybe the last point that we talk about here is if you could give one piece of advice to producers who are sitting on the edge of making these decisions and jumping into these practices, what would that piece of advice be?

Norm: 34:41

Yeah. That's tough to narrow it down to one piece. I think there's multiple pieces. I think you have to do your research. I think you have to have a goal.

Norm: 34:56

You know, what is your goal? Mine was erosion. If your goal is to do it because somebody else told you you had to do it, you're not going to like it. You have to have a goal that you're committed to. The other thing that you have to do is you have to be prepared that it isn't a one year and all is well.

Norm: 35:21

It's practice that matures over time. You have to give it multiple years to get the whole process going, get your soil conditioned, and then you'll see the growth. If you're looking for a quick fix, it's not for you. Give it time and don't be afraid to experiment a little bit. And the other thing is it isn't always going to go right.

Kathryn: 35:56

Those are great points, Norm. Thank you. And Rachel, I also want to pose this question to you from the educator standpoint. What is your biggest piece of advice that you would give to producers who are on the fence about implementing some of these conservation strategies?

Rachel: 36:12

Like Norm, it's hard to pick one, so I'm going to pick probably my top two. One echoes what Norm said. In order to know whether you've achieved a goal, especially with cover crops, you have to have that goal in advance. Going into it, knowing your goal, whatever that is, will help you know whether it's successful or not. The other piece of advice is to find a mentor. There are plenty of farmers out there that have tried these practices before, and they've learned a lot of valuable lessons. There's not really a reason to reinvent the wheel, if you will, and to have to learn these lessons all over again. If there's somebody that you can talk to and when things come up that you may not know how to address, having somebody who's been there before as a resource, I think is incredibly valuable.

Norm: 37:09

That's really important. We talked about it the other day for young farmers that are going out. You need to get with somebody that's done it because the margins are so tight, you can't afford to make the mistakes that I've made. If you get ahold of somebody who's done it, you can eliminate that step and it's going to be a whole lot better for you because things will happen and you don't want to reinvent the wheel.

Kathryn: 37:40

Definitely. Yeah, all of that advice is really great. d Norm, I think also what you just mentioned is a perfect point to make in that a lot of people who have done these things aren't shy about getting out there and talking about what they've tried and what worked and what hasn't. I would really encourage folks who are looking for that mentor to find someone. Don't hesitate about reaching out to them because the odds are that they are going to be very excited to talk to someone interested in doing this and relay their experiences and help another farmer out with with these practices. Thank you both so much again for joining me.

Kathryn: 38:21

This has been a really, really great conversation and I hope that folks listening who maybe find themselves in that camp of being on the edge of doing some of these things have got some really great pieces of advice and are maybe feeling a little bit more confident about jumping into one of these, hopefully one, if not more, of these strategies on their operations in the future. Rachel and Norm thank you so much for joining me for Talking Crop.

Norm: 38:45

Thank you for having me.