Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, fourth coach educator with University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today. Ken and I were gonna be sitting down and chatting about seed starting. It is all the rage right now, and we'll tell you why. But you know I'm not doing this by myself.
Chris Enroth: 00:22I'm joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.
Ken Johnson: 00:28Hello, Chris. You got your seed starting started?
Chris Enroth: 00:32Absolutely not. The the fact that the season is starting a few weeks earlier is not helping either. So, I I am sitting back and and enjoying, coming home late from work or whatever, event my children are doing and thinking wistfully as I drift off to sleep about starting seeds and then waking up and just keeping that vicious cycle going again. How about yourself?
Ken Johnson: 01:01We've got some started. We're a little behind. And we usually let times kinda jump the ball and things get too big. And now I've kind of pendulum swung too far in the other direction. It might be too late for some stuff, but it's all good.
Chris Enroth: 01:16That's fine. You know, we we're looking at possibly a very long growing season this year, so maybe we will have some some extra time. If it's if it's warm like this at the beginning of the season. Maybe at the end of the season, we're gonna have another warm spell. We'll we'll see what happens.
Chris Enroth: 01:33But so so, yeah, I'm I'm glad to hear you got started.
Ken Johnson: 01:36This isn't gonna be there. We have a late frost and a very early frost.
Chris Enroth: 01:41Watch that happen. Yes. And no peaches to speak of. So, yeah, we will
Ken Johnson: 01:46we'll see
Chris Enroth: 01:46what happens. And I because we're talking about seed starting, I wanted to share, last week, we talked about garden trends. And I wanted to share, from this publication. So this publication is from the green industry, you know, landscapers, garden centers. It's from their own metrics.
Chris Enroth: 02:09And so I wanted to share what they're seeing in the social media sphere. So let me read this to you right now. So searches for seed starting is up 300% right now in 2024. The same search for seed starting indoors, also up 300%. The question, when to start seed indoors, up 700%, and then starting seeds indoors, up 300%.
Chris Enroth: 02:36So every combination of starting seeds, people are curious about this. And so they're saying they're seeing a real big uptick on on seed starting sales of materials at their garden centers.
Ken Johnson: 02:52So that's compared to, like, last year, does it say?
Chris Enroth: 03:00I think just in the month. So it is up 300% since last February or since this previous
Ken Johnson: 03:13month. Yeah.
Chris Enroth: 03:14So March, it has jumped. So they're going kind of on an annual cycle, looking month to month how these these searches have increased. And so it could we could probably say that this increase or this interest has is should be expected. A lot of people like to start seeds, but they are saying that they're seeing increased sales in these things at garden centers than normal. So, I'm I'm supposing that's normal from other years past.
Chris Enroth: 03:45And if you wanna know about what people are searching on Pinterest for starting seeds, the specific plants, we have snapdragons and cut flowers. So foxglove, gladiolus, and ranunculus are all popular searches. So seed starting is, is just the season right now, in mid March as we're recording this. So I think for the most part, can we we might focus mostly on vegetable seeds today, vegetable crops. What do you think?
Ken Johnson: 04:18Yeah. We can throw some flowers in here and there. But, yeah, I was for us, we usually do vegetables. We do some flower snapdragon, zinnias. So I think a lot of the at least the flowers that we grow in our house, we start a lot of them inside, but you can also direct seed.
Ken Johnson: 04:34We just try to get a jump on the season.
Chris Enroth: 04:37Yeah. Yeah. I I I think coming into the show today, my mindset was mostly vegetables. That's what I was was thinking of getting tomato plants started and peppers and all of that. But it it seems like lots of folks are very interested in cut flower gardens this year too.
Chris Enroth: 04:53So, I think a lot of what we talk about can be can be applied to other aspects of seed starting, different flowering plants, and the like. So, yeah, I guess we should get started. So, Ken, why in the heck do we wanna start from seed? I always tell people this is not easy. Why do people wanna do this?
Ken Johnson: 05:13I think well, I mean, for personal experience for me, personally, I think kinda two things. You get a a jump start on the growing season. You know, there are certain things that we're talking about vegetable gardens. You're not growing tomatoes direct seeded. If you're lucky, you may get a crop right before it freezes.
Ken Johnson: 05:32So you're getting that jump start, like putting out those transplants so you save yourself, you know, maybe a month or more of time there. And I think for for me, the big thing is the variety. There's a lot more stuff more varieties of cultivars that you can buy by seed than you can if you're just gonna go to the nursery or box store. And I think we're seeing more varieties cultivars, especially for, like, tomatoes and stuff in stores, but it's still nowhere near what you're gonna find in, like, a garden catalog. There's some of them that have 10 pages devoted just tomatoes.
Ken Johnson: 06:09There's there's no company. That's all they do. They sell tomato seeds. So there's there's a lot more diversity cultivars. You know, if we're talking about tomatoes, different colors, sizes, shapes.
Ken Johnson: 06:21You know, you've got your your slicers, your beef steak, your paste, your grape types, your cherry tomatoes. There's there's just, yeah, endless possibilities almost when doing seed.
Chris Enroth: 06:36And I I usually forewarn people. I say if you're you're gardening for the first time this year, maybe you just bought a house and you're just gonna put in a garden, baby seed starting isn't for you this year. Go to the store, buy some transplants, because when you're seed starting I I I meet a lot of failure, sometimes. Sometimes I don't get good germination. Sometimes I get diseases.
Chris Enroth: 07:02Sometimes, like you said, they maybe my lighting's not good. We're gonna talk about all that. But if this is your first year, I I suggest, buying transplants from the store just because we wanna have we want you to have a positive experience with gardening. And sometimes seed starting isn't positive. We run into problems.
Ken Johnson: 07:23Yeah. And sometimes going through those garden catalogs, you get paralysis through analysis. There's just so much to pick from. It can get overwhelming if you're not if you don't have an idea of what you're looking for too.
Chris Enroth: 07:34Right. Well and I'm the opposite of that story too. I'm I am it's not paralysis. It's a it's a I can do that. Oh, I could probably fit that one in my guard.
Chris Enroth: 07:43Oh, I could do that. I can do that. I I and I I wind up with way too much than what I can actually put in my yard. So, I I feel like those seed catalogs give me false hope of what is achievable at a growing season. So, yeah, you know, go to the garden center this spring if it's your first time.
Chris Enroth: 08:04Get those transplants picked out. Get them in the garden and learn to grow the plants first before starting from seed.
Ken Johnson: 08:13Yeah. I know we're still gonna talk about vegetables most, but, like, you know, we talk about tomatoes, all the varieties. So we do a lot of snapdragons, and that's another one. You know? At the store, you may be seeing three or four different types.
Ken Johnson: 08:26But I think this year, we had our daughter help us pick stuff out, and she obviously wanted every snapdragon there was. I think we've got, like, 10 different types of snapdragons we're starting. Mhmm. So and that's still just a drop in the bucket of what is out there too, different colors and sizes and the set and the other. So it's it's not only for vegetables.
Ken Johnson: 08:48That's ridiculous amount of diversity. It's for flowers too.
Chris Enroth: 08:51Yeah. And and and, also, that that's kind of brings a good point up, Ken. I I suppose with some flowering plants, you know, if this is your first foray in the seed starting, I I will say marigolds are pretty easy to start from seed. So if you wanna maybe buy a couple, of some of the materials, some of the lighting, like, get a shelf set up, but you don't wanna hinge everything like, don't wanna hinge your whole vegetable garden on this, try some marigolds. Try starting some sunflowers even from seed.
Chris Enroth: 09:22Those can transplant. So this experiment with the with the low bar plants. Yeah. Set set your expectations very low.
Ken Johnson: 09:33Well, some of those flowers flowers. And some of those flowers and the marigolds, the sunflowers, the zinnias, you can direct seed those too. So hold some of that seed back. And if it's complete failure inside, you can just go direct seed that. Or for marigolds, you can go buy some at the the hardware store if nothing else.
Ken Johnson: 09:50Mhmm.
Chris Enroth: 09:52So, Ken, I guess we should chat about so let's say, you you know, a person has decided to start seeds in their own home. Where should they do this? I feel like we all start on a windowsill at the beginning. I know I have. As a as a broke college student who rented, but I wanted to start seeds.
Chris Enroth: 10:16I literally put, like, a little tray on, like, the the toilet tank, and there was because there was a window there and I got some light. It didn't go so well. So do we have any tips for where should we be doing this in the house?
Ken Johnson: 10:34Yeah. So windowsill, you can try. If you're gonna be doing windowsill, you probably want southern exposure. It's gonna get your most light. And as we get later or further into spring, you're gonna get better and better light.
Ken Johnson: 10:44Sun's gonna get higher in the sky, more intense. But early in the year, you're you're not gonna be getting enough light even if it's southern exposure. So you're gonna have to look at supplemental lighting, whether that's nowadays, we have fluorescent or more and more LED lighting. It's kind of the way things are going. Know we bought I was gonna buy some lights for the office so we can start some more ginger.
Ken Johnson: 11:07And the bank we had bought last year, company isn't carrying anymore. They're switching everything over to LED. So we're seeing that more and more. Yeah.
Chris Enroth: 11:20So, yeah, as as you said, Ken, I think windowsill works in a pinch, especially if you're doing something like lettuces or some greens, herbs, things like that. But our fruiting crops, boy, they need a lot of light. And so investing in supplemental lighting, probably gonna be the way we'll need to go. I mean, days are getting longer now, but they're still not, June 21 too long. You know?
Chris Enroth: 11:44We're not that that long of a day length. So, yeah, I I I would say for for me, where I I now start seeds is in my basement. And I do that because I feel like the temperature is a bit more stable there. I have a little bit more control over some of the, kind of environmental aspects of that, airflow, temperature, light. And so I I actually start my seeds in a place where there are no windows now in the basement.
Chris Enroth: 12:15And I I depend entirely on artificial lighting to get my seedlings off to a good start.
Ken Johnson: 12:22Yeah. Our our seed starting rack is in our dining room. So and it's it's slowly being know, we're taking more and more plants and just leaving them under there year round or in the winter. Sorry. We're losing some of our seed starting space.
Ken Johnson: 12:39Yeah. And we'd and for and like anything else with gardening, you can spend as much money as you possibly want. Seed starting, you can buy premade racks that can cost you a thousand dollars. You know, if you're getting one that's got three or four shelves on it and LED lights and all the other bells and whistles. Or, you know, if you got it in your windowsill, you can get a small light, even a fluorescent light on a lamp if it's a small enough area and do that.
Ken Johnson: 13:07So it's your your budget's kinda your only limitation when it comes to the bells and whistles you wanna get.
Chris Enroth: 13:15And I think also it kinda depends upon the crop that you're gonna be starting. So I this year, I'm going to experiment in my garage with some of the cooler season crops, some of the lettuces, kale, things like that that I will be starting. And so we have some shelving in the garage where even though it's still kinda chilly out there, I can probably get a heat mat under there, set that on a timer, and I'm gonna have some domes then over top of that that that flat. And but I I I'm really gonna have to watch that temperature probably pretty closely. If we get another really cold night, I'll have to move those into the house.
Chris Enroth: 13:53But if it also gets really warm in that garage, which it can, you know, some of our 70 degree days that we've had recently, it's gotten pretty warm in there. I'll just have to keep a closer eye on that temperature. But for my warm season crops, tomatoes and peppers and and then the like, those are gonna still probably be germinated in the basement, again, where I'm not gonna have big swings in temperature from cold to hot throughout the day.
Ken Johnson: 14:20Yeah. I haven't I haven't I've never tried lettuce seeds, Ernie. I've always done a direct seed. I may have to try that. I was
Chris Enroth: 14:28the head lettuce. I really like doing those, pre or or sprouting those or germinating those in flats or in cells and then transplanting them out. And I that's how I've done it. But, yes, we you can also, for those, sprinkle those in the ground and just directs to them.
Ken Johnson: 14:47Maybe another one to experiment with. Settlement that I think lettuce is pretty forgiving if you have less light too. Mhmm. Yeah. So talked about where to do it.
Ken Johnson: 15:00A little bit about lighting. We could probably go into a little more of that. A little bit. But what other materials should we be pursuing on our seed starting journey? Well,
Chris Enroth: 15:11I I would say, like, you could go to the store, and you can buy, like, a kit that has everything you need these days. That that seems to be the most popular thing anymore, especially in the gardening world. No matter what it is you're you're thinking of doing, like, oh, you can buy a kit now, whether it's seed starting or irrigation or what have you. It comes with everything you need. And so some of these kits, it will come with, like, a flat.
Chris Enroth: 15:33And by a flat, we're talking like a a ten twenty. That's what that's the industry term. Ten twenty flat like this. This one doesn't have holes in the bottom, but, ideally, you know, you wanna make sure that you have drainage, and and this one would be something to set underneath, maybe a flat or other smaller containers that do have drainage to make sure that you can drain water away and that your seeds aren't sitting in water all the time. Otherwise, they'll rot.
Chris Enroth: 15:57They won't germinate. And in that flat of with no drainage, you would then, you you have kind of the world as your oyster in terms of what containers you can use. I have some really cute ones. So this is actually a cute colorful. Comes in all different colors.
Chris Enroth: 16:14This one has drainage holes. This one doesn't. These are just little, like, four by four squares, and then they fit perfectly arranged in the flat. Now you could put soil in here, put seeds in here, and get them started. This is actually what this is intended for is microgreens, and so this is a little it's a little fiber mat right here that we would set in here, and you would sprinkle microgreen seeds and just mist that down, throw it in the flat.
Chris Enroth: 16:44And yeah. But so there there's there's that. But then, I mean, I think a lot of us are kind of reaching for what we have on hand from last year. So we do have some of these, like, containers where you could fill the soil and start seed in there. I would caution if you're doing that, it's always a good idea to clean those before seed starting, especially if you've had any disease issues in the past.
Chris Enroth: 17:07Get them in a put them in a big tub with some dawn dish soap, and we clean them, hose them off. If you're doing this commercially, you would do some type of a a sanitation rinse as well, but you don't necessarily need to do that at home unless you've been experiencing disease problems.
Ken Johnson: 17:26And I would say a lot of the kits are usually gonna come with these little six pack cells. Mhmm. So that there'd be, like, 72. Right? 72 and a flat.
Ken Johnson: 17:36You get that? Sorry.
Chris Enroth: 17:37Could be. Yeah. That's one of the numbers it could be.
Ken Johnson: 17:40Yeah. Depending on the size. So a lot of the kits you're gonna buy the all in one where it's got the trade, the cells, and the and the dome. That's gonna be this size if you're watching.
Chris Enroth: 17:51Yes.
Ken Johnson: 17:51If you're just listening. Sorry. That wasn't very helpful.
Chris Enroth: 17:54No. It wasn't. So, yeah, if you're just listening, I guess we're doing a lot of show and tell today. So we do have the YouTube link in the show notes if you wanna check out what we're showing.
Ken Johnson: 18:05Yeah. I guess if you've ever gone to the nursery garden center, if you get a six pack of plants, those little usually black black plastic cells is is what those those kits are typically gonna come with.
Chris Enroth: 18:19Mhmm.
Ken Johnson: 18:20More descriptive.
Chris Enroth: 18:22Yes. I I also get the question often, like, do we need to have, like, the humidity dome over top the germinating seed? I I kinda go back and forth. I think it's more of a your environment. Is your house, like, super dry?
Chris Enroth: 18:38Is it really gonna dry out very quickly? I think there's other things to consider. But what do you think, Ken, when it comes to those humidity domes?
Ken Johnson: 18:48If I have them and I have or have them that'll fit on my containers, I use them. But as soon as stuff starts poking through Mhmm. I'll crack them. Because you you these things are coming up, and you basically got a % humidity in there, and that's what they're used to. I think sometimes you could just take that off right away, and your house humidity is at 30%, lancer can be particularly happy.
Ken Johnson: 19:08So I usually crack it for a day or two, let that equalize, and then take it off. I don't leave them on too long after stuff starts popping up.
Chris Enroth: 19:16That's a great tip. I never actually thought about that acclimation period between 100 humidity to 30% humidity. That explains a lot of issues I've had in the past. Okay. Very good.
Ken Johnson: 19:29Alright. Don't know if that actually works, but it works in my head. We'll put it that way.
Chris Enroth: 19:34Hey. Tips for free here, folks. That's, I'll take them. I'll take them. Oh, that's a good one.
Chris Enroth: 19:40So, yeah, humidity domes, they they often do have the little vents that you can control a little bit of that airflow. I don't know how well it works. But, yeah, I like that. Crack them. And then once you really start to see good germination, I usually take mine off.
Chris Enroth: 19:55And then I do you use any fans, Ken? I use fans in my basement where I'm germinating seed to get some airflow.
Ken Johnson: 20:04We don't. We've got ours in our dining room, so we got people moving around a lot, and it's it's on a wall, and then we have a door to get into the house right on the other side of that wall. So when that's open, we've I think we're getting enough airflow. We don't we haven't really had any issues with some of the diseases and stuff that you would associate with. But, you know, that would help the drying out.
Ken Johnson: 20:30It helps I think that that air movement helps kinda stiffen those stems too, so that would probably something we should do, but we don't.
Chris Enroth: 20:36Well, just encourage the kids to keep running in the dining.
Ken Johnson: 20:40Blow on them every time they go by. Okay. Exactly.
Chris Enroth: 20:44Yeah. So, yeah, I I have so after I see germination, I take the lid, the germination dome off. I remove that. And then so my timer so everything's on a timer, and it's all plugged into a a power strip, which is is is safe enough. If you have a really big setup, you might need to have multiple timers and multiple power strips.
Chris Enroth: 21:11Don't do with the Christmas vacation, Clark Griswold thing where he plugs all of his Christmas lights into one outlet. Don't do that. But so it's all so once the timer kicks on, the lights kick on, and the fan kicks on too. But there's one thing when it comes to before we get things germinated here is is heat mats. Do you use heat mats?
Ken Johnson: 21:36I don't, but we're it's upstairs, so, I mean, we keep our house. No. We're probably cooler than than what some of the season when we're usually mid sixties, so I'm not too concerned with it being too cold. But, yeah, someone like you is in a basement. It's probably a little more important.
Chris Enroth: 21:52Yeah. So and I do use heat mats, and so I use a relatively cheaper heat mat. Basically, you plug it in, and what it does is it increases the it's the the temperature, like, 20 degrees beyond what the ambient air temperature that you could kind of expect anywhere from, like, 15 to 25 ish, we'll say 20 degrees on average. So it increases that about 20 degrees, whatever the ambient air temperature is. There's not much control.
Chris Enroth: 22:22You can buy heat mats where you actually have a thermometer, and you stick that thermometer in the soil media that you're germinating your seed in, and it will regulate the temperature to stay at, like, 70 to 85 ish degrees. And and it sort of does depend upon your seed that you're using to know what is that ideal germination temperature. A lot of times your seed packets will tell you, what that ideal germination temperature is. So it's heat mats do a great job. They work really well for breaking that seed dormancy, getting germ germination.
Chris Enroth: 22:58But it is very important. As soon as we get root development, those heat mats can actually cook or kinda overheat those roots. And so once you see germination, it's important to to unplug or turn off that heat mat and and get to get that out of the equation so that you don't overheat your plants as they're growing.
Ken Johnson: 23:19Mhmm. Yeah. I think yeah. And I would say if, you know, if you're in a basement, depending on how well insulated everything is, you probably wanna look at a heat, man, or you're especially if you're doing warm season stuff because that needs warmer temperatures to really germinate well.
Chris Enroth: 23:39Yeah. Yeah. In a in an ideal world, yeah, our our warm season crops, they'd be going in to the ground during the summer months when they would germinate the best. But as Ken said, then we wouldn't get any vegetables because it would take too long to grow. And, yeah, it'd be freezing cold by the time they started flowering.
Ken Johnson: 24:00Alright. So then we've we've talked about lights, you know, fluorescent LED lighting. I think one thing people overlook, especially when they're starting, is the distance of the lights to the plants. I think a lot of times people have them up way too high, and usually you want them within couple inches of those leaves. And and for our seed starting setup, we've got them on pulleys so that we can pull you on each corner of our lights so we can angle them.
Ken Johnson: 24:30So if you've got stuff that's a lot taller, we can raise that up and keep it lower on the other side. And so so we can try to keep those lights close, but not touching because you will get leaves burned to you even if you're using LEDs.
Chris Enroth: 24:43Yeah. I and we're we're trying our best to replicate the intensity of the sun, but we just can't do that in our house. Sun is bright and is very powerful. But so we're we're doing our best by lowering, those lights closer to the tops of your your seedlings, you're going to at least increase that intensity that their seedlings are receiving there. That does, unfortunately, limit the kind of the the width or the area that that light touches.
Chris Enroth: 25:16So oftentimes, if you have if you're lowering your light, you might even need to add a second fixture, a light fixture, if you're now your your lower light that's that's lower down towards your seedlings is not covering all of your shelving. So just be mindful of that. That happens to me. And, unfortunately, I just have to rotate flats under the more intense light in that case.
Ken Johnson: 25:42Yeah. Usually, my plants on the end are all Mhmm. Angled.
Chris Enroth: 25:47Angling towards the light. Yeah. Mhmm. And that's that's an interesting feature. Right?
Chris Enroth: 25:53You you can even go to, like, the garden center, and you can see when you look at the flats that are on the the bench for you to purchase, you can see the plants usually at at the edges of that flat are a little bit taller. That's because they're probably grown under maybe artificial light at some point, and they had to grow a little bit taller to reach that that light. Whereas the ones in the center, sometimes they're shorter because they were right underneath that light. Now that can also be the inverse. That can be flipped.
Chris Enroth: 26:22Sometimes the plants in the middle, weren't getting enough light, and they are a little bit taller and leggier than the plants on the edge. So I I always look at flats closely when I'm purchasing transplants, and I'm like, I always pick the shorter stockier ones when I'm going to buy stuff.
Ken Johnson: 26:39Yes. That's always a good thing to do. But but the only thing you can get away with lanky plants is well, easily get away with this tomatoes. And even then, they have their limits. It's not lanky.
Chris Enroth: 26:50Yep. They split easily if they're too lanky all over and crack. Yeah. I I'll also add. So I we have our our fluorescent bulb light fixture, but we also have two different types of LED fixtures.
Chris Enroth: 27:05One is the blue and red light, which I don't like as much. Makes your plants look a weird color. You can't really tell if they're green or purple or red or you don't know what color the leaves are, so you gotta turn off the artificial lighting and use an actual, you know, real lighting, or a white light or blue or a white light or a warm light to see if it's the leaves are green or are they a sickly yellow. You don't know.
Ken Johnson: 27:32They also get special glasses.
Chris Enroth: 27:34Yes. They have the special glasses that that cut out some of those, light waves. But I will say for your LED fixtures, read those instructions carefully in terms of how high to hang them above your plants. I've noticed that they vary depending upon the company. Some of them are are are suggesting to keep them a little bit higher.
Chris Enroth: 27:56And so I I I would just make sure to read those instructions on on those LED fixtures because that's kind of the a a brave new world in terms of plant artificial lighting.
Ken Johnson: 28:08Yeah. I think the LED lighting I've been seeing more and more nowadays is more of the white. May have some red and blue bulbs, whatever they're called in there too, diodes, I guess. But it's more white, so you don't have those kind of messed up colors. The first bank of LEDs we got were the the blue and red, which makes everything look pink.
Ken Johnson: 28:29You go in the room, you can't see anything. And then when you walk out, everything looks green for a little bit. So we did get the glasses just when our kids go in there. They don't it doesn't at least I hope it doesn't probably mess up your eyesight. It's just kinda temporary.
Ken Johnson: 28:43Everything's got a greenish tinge to it.
Chris Enroth: 28:45Mhmm. It's funny how light physics works. Yeah. So, Ken, I I did mention I I have everything on a timer. So my timer, it's a digital timer, and there's a couple different types that you can get.
Chris Enroth: 29:02But I I will say my timer, it pretty much controls the lights. That is my overarching goal is to control the the lights. Yes. They'll also kick on the fan. Yes.
Chris Enroth: 29:12They'll also kick on the heat mats if I have them going. But in terms of how long should the lights be on or how long should that timer be set, what what are the recommended duration, for artificial lighting for some of our seedlings?
Ken Johnson: 29:29I think what do we have our set at. If we've got our set for, like, fourteen, fifteen hours. Usually, you're gonna leave it on a little longer than well, longer than you would have, like, a normal day length just because that light isn't as intense, so you're getting more light on those. But think usually fourteen, fifteen hours. Mhmm.
Ken Johnson: 29:49Maybe sixteen is what you're you're looking at.
Chris Enroth: 29:52Yeah. I I think mine is set to fourteen. No. Wait. Mine is set to sixteen hours.
Chris Enroth: 29:58So it kicks on at 6AM, and it kicks off at is it 8PM? I have to pay more attention. I don't know. I can't remember. But yeah.
Ken Johnson: 30:08I think ours is seven to ten. Mhmm.
Chris Enroth: 30:13Yeah. So, yeah, maybe fourteen hours for me. Essentially, a lot of these plants could grow well with twelve hour day length, but twelve hour day length is the sun. And like we said, you we try hard, but we cannot replicate that intensity of the sun. So that's why we have to really set those timers for, like, fourteen, sixteen hours indoors to give our plants a little bit extra light, supplement that the lack of sunlight that they're actually getting.
Ken Johnson: 30:42And if you have Christmas lights, put on a timer. Just recycle that, and you don't have to go out and get a new one unless you keep your Christmas lights up here around.
Chris Enroth: 30:49I know some people that do that. Christmas every day of the
Ken Johnson: 30:56year. Yes.
Chris Enroth: 30:59Look. And we talked about some of the materials that we we need, containers and things like that, but maybe the most important material, the media or the the soil that we sprout our seeds in. And there's been quite quite a bit of debate or issue about this. Now I I I will just say that when it comes to seed starting, for the most part, we're using a soil free mix. You know, there's no actual soil in these.
Chris Enroth: 31:33This artificial media or artificial mix. And so even if we might say soil during the rest of the show, just know we're probably talking about a a soil free mix. But most of these soil free mixes are comprised of peat. There's other soil free mixes that are comprised of, coconut coir core. I can't say that word.
Chris Enroth: 31:59Coconut coir. So that they're they're kind of the the bulk of that material, the either the peat moss or the coconut core that makes up the bulk of that material. I I just sandwiched that sentence. Yeah. I said the same thing at the beginning as I did at the end.
Chris Enroth: 32:18Cool. Yeah.
Ken Johnson: 32:20Yeah. So I well, at least as long as I've been doing seed starting, it's usually, it's been peat. And I think there's there's some legitimate concerns about using peat. It's while it is a somewhat renewable resource, it's not it doesn't renew as quickly as we're using it. So that's that's mined from peat bogs and stuff.
Ken Johnson: 32:40And then usually, especially if your seed starting out to milled up really fine, and then you're planting into that, I think you're seeing more coconut core. I guess that's maybe a little more sustainable, but they're also deforesting jungles in Asia to plant coconuts. I don't know how how much better it is if if it is better. So I I think those are the two you're typically gonna find. Usually, you'll have stuff a lot of times, sometimes perlite vermiculite mixed in there.
Ken Johnson: 33:07I've seen stuff with compost as a base with some of these other things mixed in there. So there's there's a lot of variability. I usually use the the peat stuff. We do have we have gotten some stuff this year that's got some compost in it. And I don't and this is kinda my personal thoughts on this.
Ken Johnson: 33:28I don't really think you need stuff that's really got a whole lot of nutrients in it. So you don't really necessarily need something that's got a lot of compost because you kinda want those roots to to really search out that that media, get that really healthy root system going. If you got really nice kinda lush media. I don't know how much you're it's really gonna be searching Mhmm. On stuff.
Ken Johnson: 33:52So I don't know. I don't There's there's probably research done on it, and I haven't looked at it. And maybe I'm just blowing smoke, but that's in my mind, that's the way it works.
Chris Enroth: 34:02Well and a lot of that nutrients will leach out over time. You know, if you're watering the seeds before they've germinated, the nutrients are still moving downward into that, into that cell or that container, whatever it is they're in, and then they leak out in the bottom tray. And so but, yeah, I think you don't necessarily want a a super food kind of fertilizer in there because we'll talk about this later. You'll be feeding things other than your plants. So Everything else.
Chris Enroth: 34:38Other things that'll be growing in there too, but we'll talk about that. Yeah. I I just also real just from my bird's eye view of the the peat moss, what I have heard is that I know there's a lot of emotions about peat moss, and there's especially with the way that over in Europe, how they have handled harvesting and using peat over there, definitely been destructive. What most of us use here in The US is harvested up in Canada. A lot of those bags are gonna have a Canadian flag on them.
Chris Enroth: 35:14And so from what I've been told, they're very proud of how they handled their, sourcing and harvesting of peat from their peat bogs up in Canada. But as Ken said, we're gonna keep using it, and it's gonna renew after couple hundred years. So, yeah, maybe that coconut coir is gonna be something that can help balance us out a little bit more for for the long haul.
Ken Johnson: 35:41Yeah. I'll say for for seed starting, you know, regardless if you're doing the peat, the core, core, however you pronounce it, compost based, you wanna make sure that's fairly fine, particularly if you're doing, like, small seeded stuff. So if you're doing things like snapdragons or poppies, these are these really small seeds. You don't necessarily want those big chunks of things in there because it's hard to kinda get that good contact. We're getting up with these big voids that your seeds fall down in, and they're really small.
Ken Johnson: 36:13So I've I spend a lot of time, more time than I really want to, picking out sticks and sometimes rocks and stuff from these from these mixes. So keep that in mind.
Chris Enroth: 36:27Yeah. So, Ken, to poorly quote from the graduate, the future is plastic, and we just so happen to be in the future now, according to that movie's time frame. So, I mean, plastic is great. It can be molded into any shape. It's lightweight.
Chris Enroth: 36:47It is can be used for multiple seasons. But plastic also has a a disposal or issue or end of life issue, and that it doesn't really necessarily decompose into its, its its original building blocks, and and go back out into the environment and then can be reconstituted into something else. It just breaks down into smaller and smaller pieces of plastic. And especially when it comes to, like, the green industry and pots, a lot of that plastic is not recyclable. So there is this movement to maybe get a bit away from plastics.
Chris Enroth: 37:27And, you have you you have worked in this and and using fewer plastics, and you have a technique that you use to start seeds. So share that, with us. What what are you doing to maybe lessen some of that plastic waste?
Ken Johnson: 37:41Yeah. So this year so this is the first year we've done it. We've gotten some soil blockers. So, basically, you know, this one for people who aren't watching the video. It's just kind of this metal device.
Ken Johnson: 37:56It's got little chambers in it. You you just pack in your potting media in there. It's got a little plunger. You plunge that, and out pops a block of soil. So we've got I've got two different sizes.
Ken Johnson: 38:08They there's a couple other sizes too. So I have one that's really small. These make these little you know, about an inch, inch and a half little plugs. And the plunger's got a little divot, little dibbler on there. So you have this little divot in the top that you place your seat on, and then you can cover.
Ken Johnson: 38:25So the little one I have, we also have a larger soil blocker, and it's got these little squares in there. They're the same size as the small ones, so we can take the smaller ones and bump them up into a bigger soil blocks. It's gonna look so we've got we started some asparagus back in February. This is kinda what it looks like there. So we've got there's a block, and we did the asparagus.
Ken Johnson: 38:49The seeds are probably a little too big for the little one, but we started them in these little blocks and then bumped them up to the bigger one. And this is some asparagus in a block.
Chris Enroth: 39:01Yeah. That's not asparagus.
Ken Johnson: 39:03Or not asparagus. Artichoke. Sorry.
Chris Enroth: 39:06There you go.
Ken Johnson: 39:07Artichoke. So, yeah, artichoke in the block here, and these artichokes and these cells are started at the same time. And you kinda see different sort of the block is quite a bit bigger. It does have more media to grow in. Nice thing about this is that when the soil box is that when the roots hit it, it's kinda pruning itself, air pruning.
Ken Johnson: 39:29So I'm not having a bunch of those circling roots and stuff on there quite yet. So we're we're experimenting with that so far. So good. The the bigger blocks do take a little more room than, again, the six pack cells, so we run into a few space issues. So we're kinda being a little bit selective this year about what we put in the soil blocks and what we use our our traditional plastic cells with.
Chris Enroth: 39:56So, yes, Ken described between each block, there is you have a gap. Like, there's an air gap between the two, which then Yeah. Air prunes and gives you a more fibrous type root system.
Ken Johnson: 40:10I will say say for these big ones, you know, when we put them in the tray, we kinda smoosh them together. So now they've all knitted together. But I just I took a knife and cut this one out, and it's it's fine. It's still it's like a lesson for next year is not make leave a little more space so they don't all grow together. Yeah.
Ken Johnson: 40:29We're so far, you know, I'm happy with it. I think it, you know, it should be pretty easy to transplant these and can report back later to see if we get any artichokes because we're currently doing the the vernalization on it where it needs 50 degrees for a couple weeks in order to get flower formation in that first year. Mhmm.
Chris Enroth: 40:53Well, very neat. What what kind of soil is used for that? Is that potting mix?
Ken Johnson: 40:58So it's a potting mix. This one is this is the one that's got some compost in it. I haven't tried it with just straight peat or a core. But from my read, you know, that compost helps those blocks stay together a little bit better. Because if you don't pack them in very well, it'll crumble.
Ken Johnson: 41:15Mhmm. It's taking some trial and error. One drawback with this little one. So the the bigger one is all metal. It's pretty sturdy.
Ken Johnson: 41:22It's, you know, welded together. This plastic one, the bottom is kinda forming the cells as plastic and this metal rest of its metal just kinda clips into there. So there's been several times where we packed it in real tight, and it's all popped off off the part.
Chris Enroth: 41:37So Mhmm.
Ken Johnson: 41:38If I could do it again, if I could find a small one like this, this is a four by five. I think, like, again, inch, inch and a half. If I could find one that's all metal, that's welded and doesn't pop apart, I would do that. I don't know if it exists, but that is one issue we've had. Because if you get them too loose, they'll just crumble.
Ken Johnson: 42:00So little little trial and error on that. Mhmm.
Chris Enroth: 42:04And and if people are wondering what these you know, again, Ken described them, but I I look at these, and they look like over the top brass knuckles with springs on them. So that that's what I'm seeing as Ken's holding these up, and it it looks like he's got these brass giant brass knuckles with, like, springs and hydraulics on them. So, yeah,
Ken Johnson: 42:24pretty sturdy. So and for these, there's there's a size in between those two, which we probably should get. Because sometimes the seeds are almost too big for the small one. Well, I have a kind of a middle size. Probably be beneficial.
Ken Johnson: 42:39That may be next year. Next year.
Chris Enroth: 42:43That's right. Mhmm. But you there's more than just soil blocking. There is another way to cut out plastic. So what's your other technique that you use?
Ken Johnson: 42:54So we also got things like the peat pots or cow pots. And sometimes when you go to the garden center nursery, you buy you can go buy plants that are already in these. A lot times, like, the herbs and stuff will be in these usually round pots. But same thing here. It's kinda compressed peat or cow patties sometimes.
Chris Enroth: 43:12Now
Ken Johnson: 43:14in in my experience, I I haven't used these a tremendous amount for seed starting. But when I have bought plants, used out of these, and put them in the ground, they don't break down. At least I haven't had them break down like advertised. You know, go in, clean up the garden in the fall or even the next spring, pull the plant out, and a lot of times that pot, you can still see it. Mhmm.
Ken Johnson: 43:37So I don't use them all that much just because I don't I haven't seen them break down like they've said. But maybe it's just maybe it's just me. I mean, when you do use these, if you put them in the ground, you wanna make sure you peel off the top. Because if you've got that top sticking out, that'll wick the water out. So make sure that that peat pot or the cow pot is completely buried when using those.
Chris Enroth: 44:01Yeah. I've I've found with the peat pots that well and and same is true with the peat, soil mix, that if you allow it to dry out, that it it actually becomes a little bit hydrophobic and that it it won't won't absorb water unless you keep it soaked, soaking in in water for a long period of time. And so those peat pots, as they dry over time, either in the ground or in my basement, and I let them dry out too much, they actually start to repel water, and then they don't break down. But the ones that I maybe keep a little bit too wet, you know, maybe they're sitting in water all the time, they'll break down fairly quick. And I really do like the cowpots mostly because I'll take them into, like, a classroom or something.
Chris Enroth: 44:47I'll say, I'll hand them all out to the kids, and I'll say, guess what you're holding? Ow, poop. Yeah. Like, oh, they're gross. It's like, yeah.
Chris Enroth: 44:54It's fine. It's fine.
Ken Johnson: 44:56You never get invited back.
Chris Enroth: 44:58That's right. I'm doing that. My job, one classroom at a time. Yeah.
Ken Johnson: 45:03And speaking of drying, I'm going back to the soil blocks. I found that the soil blocks dry out a little faster, which when you think about it, it makes sense. It's completely exposed to the air compared to those plastic where you only have the top. So if you do the the blocking, you may need to water or keep an eye keep an eye on the water a little more than you normally would.
Chris Enroth: 45:24Oh, okay. So how do you water, Ken? Because I with soil blocking, what I've done in the past, I've had to use, like, a mist. I've had a hose set up with, like, a mist nozzle on it, which is able to kind of permeate all of the the the different soil blocks, like the corners and edges and down below. But how do you water your stuff at home?
Ken Johnson: 45:49So we've got them in a tray. Mhmm. And I just bought them water, so I dump the water in there. The really little ones, if they dry out, start floating. Mhmm.
Ken Johnson: 45:58And they all get mixed up, and you don't know what's what anymore. And if you're not careful and you dump the water directly on the little ones, they wash away.
Chris Enroth: 46:06Oh, no.
Ken Johnson: 46:07There's there's been a little trial and error, but I think we've we've got down we kinda leave gaps on the edges. We've got we're in the middle, so we've got area where we can pour water in. Where we just let it bottom water. Yeah. Because one thing we do is I what I do see is I top everything with vermiculite, and we can get into that a little bit later as to why I do that.
Ken Johnson: 46:28But sometimes if that if that dries out and you start misting, it all blows away and Yes. And stuff too. So yeah. That I try to bottom water as much as I can.
Chris Enroth: 46:37That's the case for whether you're doing soil blocking or just in a regular six pack. Yeah. If you hit that with too hard water, it's gonna dislodge all the soil, and and you might wash your seeds out of there. So, there's there's a couple gentle nozzle, like, kinda rain like nozzles that you could use on a watering can. But but, yeah, essentially or bottom water, and I think those are great strategies so that the seed stays in place and doesn't wash off or get maybe buried a little bit too deep if you put too much water on top.
Ken Johnson: 47:14Yep. And I've got one other way. Now I've never I bought this for demonstration in the office, and I've never actually used these to grow anything with. But paper pot maker, as you make your own kit, newspaper, something like that. Basically, you've got a a base, a wooden base.
Ken Johnson: 47:31It's got a little bump in the bottom there. You wrap your paper around the the the pestle. Or is this the mortar? Which one's which? Mortar and pestle.
Chris Enroth: 47:42The thing that crushes stuff.
Ken Johnson: 47:44Yes. Yeah.
Chris Enroth: 47:44It looks like a mortar and pestle.
Ken Johnson: 47:46Whichever one that is. But you you wrap your paper around that. You put it in here, and then it kinda squishes the bottom. You make a little pot. So I think the instructions for this, this paper is too small, but you get a 12 inch sheet of paper, wrap it, and then you leave an inch or so gap at the bottom.
Ken Johnson: 48:05You wrap that around there. Ideally, you'd wanna do it a couple times to make it a little sturdier. And you do have newspaper or not. Notebook paper. This is for demonstration purposes only.
Ken Johnson: 48:17And then you kinda pull that up a little bit on the bottom, and then we put that in there. It's got that little whip. Put it in, crush it, and that kinda holds it all together for pot. So hey, Brad. You know, if you're gonna be doing dozens, hundreds of plants, probably not the way to go unless you got a lot of time or you get the whole family involved.
Ken Johnson: 48:45But, you know, if you're you're doing a, you know, plants few plants here and there, it could be an option.
Chris Enroth: 48:50Yeah. It it's a fun I there's another one that kids really like to do, I think. They really like to make their the paper pots. So, yeah, it's a cool tool. I I know people have used, like, glass bottles, things like that to help shape the larger size pots maybe or and and using the similar technique as Ken, but what he just demonstrated there, much easier than taking a wine bottle and trying to make a pot out of it with paper.
Ken Johnson: 49:20Yeah. Another thing I've seen people do is egg cartons. You the use your cardboard ones, not your Styrofoam, but you can use egg cartons. It'd be kinda similar to your peat pots. Probably not gonna break down as fast, but maybe another easy option you probably may already have laying around the house.
Chris Enroth: 49:40Done that before. Yeah. In a pinch. Got nothing else to use. Egg cartons, it is.
Ken Johnson: 49:47Yeah. I mean, I've seen we're we're trying to avoid plastic, but, you know, I've seen deli containers. People just poke holes in those and broadcast seeds. You know, sometimes that gets a little tricky because then you gotta start teasing out seedlings to use, and they get all roots get all intertwined, that can become a mess. But, yeah, that's an up you don't necessarily have to go out and buy special containers as long as you've got drainage, as long as whatever you're using can drain.
Chris Enroth: 50:11Yep. Yep. That's the key. Well, speaking of drainage and issues that might arise from seed starting, let's talk about issues that might arise when you're starting seeds. And I I will say maybe the the first one that that's easy for us to talk about kinda already have is leggy plants, so plants that are growing that are a little bit too tall.
Chris Enroth: 50:35So leggy is the term we use when, like, with as leaves come out on a stem, there's usually a I I upset distance between those two. And as the as there's less light, that distance expands and extends, and it gets longer and longer. And pretty soon you get a plant that's really tall, and it doesn't have much strength to hold itself up, it could flop over and break, and becomes susceptible to other problems. So leggy plants is is commonly seen if plants are too crowded or, essentially, there's just not enough light getting to them, and they're competing for the that those light resources. Yeah.
Chris Enroth: 51:15Usually, can address them by, again, supplemental lighting, getting plants outside as soon as possible, into the sunlight. So, yeah, leggy plants is something I probably deal with more often than I should. So that must mean I need to buy more lights.
Ken Johnson: 51:31Yeah. More lights, put them lower, longer leave your lights on a little bit longer. There's a couple ways you can potentially address that.
Chris Enroth: 51:40Yep. And so what about, though, we because you can really run into some issues with disease when it comes to seed starting. And then one kind of disease that stands out in my mind that really was hammered home, at least in school, was called damping off. That's one where the disease can actually carry over the container that you used last year, and it can just show up again this year. So, Ken, in terms of damping off, what what are we looking at when we see a a seedling suddenly succumb to this disease?
Ken Johnson: 52:19Yeah. So damping off is a is caused by a fungus like organism. We usually call it a fungus, but it's not technically a fungus. And with that, you you kinda your seedlings come up. They look great, and all of sudden, they just kinda flop over.
Ken Johnson: 52:32And, usually, if you look at kinda near the soil or where they meet the potting mix, usually, you kinda kinda constricted, narrowed, and discolored, and that's usually a pretty good indication you've got damping off. So that that pathogen has attacked the roots and gotten into the stem, and your plants will just flop over it. You may have one, and then it'll slowly start spreading out because it'll move in the water and stuff. So that's, you know, probably the main reason why if you're reusing pots or cells, you wanna you wanna wash, especially if you've had that. And if you've had that in the past, you may may wanna consider just getting new cells and starting over.
Ken Johnson: 53:13That's that's the primary reason why you're gonna be cleaning, sanitizing is to to prevent that. And that can you know, if you get that moving in, that can wipe out your plants pretty quick pretty quick. But once they get big, once they start getting some of those true leaves, your seedlings are kind of out of that susceptible stage. It's usually when they're real long, young, have the cotyledons, maybe the first true set of leaves. Once they start getting bigger, they kinda grow out of it, I guess, lack of a better term.
Chris Enroth: 53:40Yeah. I I think they're able to maybe photosynthesize, get enough of a energy built up from from those photosynthesis leaves and be able to maybe outgrow some of that damage in the root system. And so, yeah, damping off. It's been an issue for me.
Ken Johnson: 54:00And and keeping your soils to what can lead to that. So, you know, if it's your your soil potting media is constantly kind of that waterlogged, that's really good conditions for it. Your plants then get stressed because they can't get enough oxygen to the roots, and that makes them a little more susceptible too. So watch the watering, make sure you're you're cleaning and sanitizing well if you're reusing stuff too.
Chris Enroth: 54:23Yeah. A lot of times, I'll see, like, fungus gnats or something. Like, oh, no. I'm I'm probably overwatering some of my stuff here. So gotta gotta keep an eye on that that moisture level.
Chris Enroth: 54:33Ken, the fungus gnats do anything to seedlings? They don't. They're just annoying. Right?
Ken Johnson: 54:38They feed on organic matter. Think sometimes they may feed on roots. And I guess if you have a really big population, you know, they may do some damage. In my experience with starting seeds, I usually get some every year. I I think they're usually growing eating more of the organic matter, the the crud that's growing on top, but they could potentially feed on the roots too.
Ken Johnson: 55:01Okay. Yeah. So that's another problem you could run into.
Chris Enroth: 55:04Yeah.
Ken Johnson: 55:04It's it's fungus gnats.
Chris Enroth: 55:06And is that something where you could you restrict your watering? I guess if it's really bad, you just have to dump everything and start over. Or if it's nice enough outside, probably just move stuff outside and let nature take its course. And because I I'm sure that they would be able to disperse in more of a outdoor setting as opposed to being locked up inside.
Ken Johnson: 55:30Yeah. And and cutting back on your watering. And and maybe it'll take some time for those to to just begin in house plants too. Kinda the same idea. Cut down the water and let it dry a little more.
Ken Johnson: 55:40Little trickier with seedlings. They're not quite as tolerant of of really dry conditions as a larger, more established plant. When we get them, we get the yellow sticky cards. So just yellow cards, they've got glue on either side and hang those up, and and we kinda trap them up, trap the adults out. Know?
Ken Johnson: 55:58Doesn't really do anything about the larvae in the soil. But if you leave those out, you can kinda reduce the adult population so they're not laying as many eggs and stuff.
Chris Enroth: 56:07Yeah. Not not buzzing around you all the time if you're sitting next to your house plants. Yeah.
Ken Johnson: 56:11Yes. Mhmm.
Chris Enroth: 56:14Well, one maybe last one issue we'll talk about, is is is the case of as you're watering, sometimes we get this film develop on the surface of our of our flats or of our potting mix. Looks like algae. In a lot of times, I I think, you see this often kind of going back to this idea of potting mixes that have a really high fertilizer nutrition, content. It it just kinda overstimulates the growth of algae, and other fungal, type organisms, other other microorganisms just overstimulates. And you just get this blush of growth, because you're creating pretty nice environment for them, consistently wet environment, light, maybe not as much air movement, and you get this algae growth on your your potting mix.
Chris Enroth: 57:13I've never really done anything about it. Ken, do you have you ever really done have you gotten this, and did you do anything about it?
Ken Johnson: 57:19This is our probably our biggest issue every year is that algae growth. Because I I mean, I probably leave my plants a little little wetter than I probably should, but I'd have them a little more a little more on the wet side than drying off and starting to wilt on me, especially when they're real small. When they get bigger, I start really start cutting back on the water. What I do is I I'll sprinkle vermiculite over all of my plants. When I do that, kinda help prevent a little bit of that light getting there.
Ken Johnson: 57:49And vermiculate, there's no nutrients or anything like that either. So that'll keep it down for for a good amount of time. Every once in a while, we get it, especially if I'm top watering. You know, that kinda gets mixed up, and it'll come in. But it does a pretty good job of at least delaying it, if not stopping it almost altogether.
Chris Enroth: 58:10Good tip. I love that. So a nice top dressing of vermiculite to keep theology from growing on top. That's it's a good tip. Making notes.
Chris Enroth: 58:19Lots of good tips today.
Ken Johnson: 58:21So works for me, hopefully. If other people do, works for them. Mhmm. And you can get, you know, big old bags of that, and it's not terribly expensive. And, you know, if that's all you're using it for, it'll last you for a good long time.
Chris Enroth: 58:35Yeah. And and it's you get you can get the horticultural grade vermiculite, and, don't need to worry about it anymore, folks. It no longer contains asbestos as it did in previous generations, not ours, fortunately. So, yes, that's now regulated.
Ken Johnson: 58:55That's probably a good thing.
Chris Enroth: 58:57Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Well, that was a lot of great information about starting our own seeds, getting up on that first leg of the marathon that is the growing season. Well, the Good Growing podcast is production of University of Illinois Extension, edited this week by Ken Johnson.
Chris Enroth: 59:14A special thank you to Ken for, being with us here this week, chatting about seed starting. Ken, thank you very much.
Ken Johnson: 59:22Yes. Thank you. And I forgot to mention this earlier. So you did mention that, you know, people are oftentimes wondering when they should start seeds. We do have an article that we did on that.
Ken Johnson: 59:32It was last year talking about vegetables and flowers. Some not all flowers, but sunflowers. We can link that in the show notes if you're curious about when you should be starting. And and thank you and good luck on your seed starting journey this year.
Chris Enroth: 59:46If it ever gets started. Yes. First, you gotta start seed starting. Yeah.
Ken Johnson: 59:51And let's do this again next week.
Chris Enroth: 59:54Oh, we shall do this again next week. We're gonna be talking about perennial vegetables that you only need to plant once, and they just keep coming back over and over again. So no need for seed starting. It should be a fun, exciting show. I love when vegetables just pop right back up, and I don't have to do anything.
Chris Enroth: 01:00:12So listeners, thank you for doing what you do best, that is listening. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, watching. And as always, keep on, girl.