Ep. 179 Plants we wouldn’t plant or would think twice about before planting again| #GoodGrowing

Chris Enroth: 00:05

Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, vorticulture educator with the University of Illinois Extension coming at you from back home, Illinois. We have got a great show for you today. It is going to be about the duds. The ones that have planted and have failed us.

Chris Enroth: 00:21

We are going to be talking about plants that we would not plant again and plants that would make us think twice about planting again. And you know I'm not doing this by myself. I'm joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Ken Johnson: 00:36

Hello, Chris. It's good to be back.

Chris Enroth: 00:38

Welcome back to Illinois, the the state that will welcome you with open arms every time. So we're happy to have you back. We missed you, Ken.

Ken Johnson: 00:48

Thanks. Thanks. It was a good vacation, So saw lots of plants and animals and all kinds of good stuff.

Chris Enroth: 00:56

But everyone wants to know how did the garden survive your absence?

Ken Johnson: 01:02

Sound like we got some fairly timely rains, and we had somebody watering pots for us. So I don't think we lost anything really. Lots of weeds that is gonna take a week or two to catch up on, but every everything looks looks good.

Chris Enroth: 01:17

Excellent. Excellent. And we are also joined by horticulture educator, Emily Zweihardt in the Quad Cities, good old Rock Island County. Emily, welcome to the show.

Emily Swihart: 01:28

Hi, guys. Thanks for having me.

Chris Enroth: 01:31

We are happy to have you. Are I mean, is there any vacationing happening in your neck of the woods, or you're just hanging out at work?

Emily Swihart: 01:40

Well oh, hanging out at work right now, wrapping up baseball season. We cannot leave unless we're going to another baseball field until, you know, now, basically, this weekend. We'll head north here in August. And so that's when we'll, you know, get the garden all prepped and hope for the best.

Chris Enroth: 01:59

I have also I have survived and made it through baseball season. I'll say that was the that was a tough one for the garden. Being gone, you gotta go to work and then immediately head out to the ball diamond, and you're there all night. So, yeah, the garden kinda suffered in my area. How how about has your garden survived baseball season?

Emily Swihart: 02:21

No. Nope. It hasn't.

Chris Enroth: 02:24

That's good. It's not just me.

Emily Swihart: 02:26

This year, we had a lot more baseball than we have had in the past. My kids are getting a little older, and so our time commitment was elsewhere. So the garden has certainly suffered. It's okay. I am coming to terms with it.

Emily Swihart: 02:42

There might have been a few tears throughout the season. Just because I really love it all, you know, it's hard to it's hard to do all of it, and so it's a lot of too much of a good thing everywhere. And so I'm I'm not complaining. Everybody nobody think that I'm, you know, being upset over anything. It's just I don't have enough energy.

Emily Swihart: 03:02

And so the garden was what took a hit this year, which is it's okay. It was alright. Actually, Ken, you I'm gonna say probably inspired. I'm not gonna commit fully to it yet, but probably inspired me to actually, for the first time, try a fall garden. And maybe I'll have to to actually give my give that one more shot this year before saying this year was an epic fail.

Emily Swihart: 03:27

Maybe I can squeeze some few few things out of the fall garden. So maybe we'll update on that later. No promises.

Chris Enroth: 03:35

To be continued about the fall garden. We just gotta get the summer first. So so as listeners, viewers, as you can hear, we put our plants through the paces so, you know, they they either have to tough it out or just get out of the landscape. So, I guess, Ken, what are the what are the rules for today? What what's the, how how are we gonna do this?

Chris Enroth: 03:58

I think we you have laid out a road map for us.

Ken Johnson: 04:01

Yeah. So I think we've kinda got this broken down to plants. We would never plant again under any circumstance. Maybe not any under. But, yeah, we we just wouldn't plant again.

Ken Johnson: 04:11

We got plants that we would think twice. Either we didn't cite them properly or they're more maintenance than we thought or various other reasons. We consider planting them again, but we'd have to do our homework a little better and and be more prepared. And I think we got also include some must plants as well, so we're not all Debbie Downers today. We have some have some good news too.

Chris Enroth: 04:34

Yeah. But mostly just complaining about plants. I can do that.

Ken Johnson: 04:40

This will be a therapy session for everyone.

Chris Enroth: 04:42

There you go. There you go. Well, I I think, you know, because it I have the tattoo on my shoulder that says gardening, no regrets. You know, my list isn't very long. And so I I'm I I I can tag on, I think, to a lot of what other people say.

Chris Enroth: 05:03

So I let's start with Emily. Can we we start with one of your never again am I going to plant this? So kick us off, Emily, please.

Emily Swihart: 05:14

Okay. In no particular order. So in no particular order. I'm gonna start with early sunflower. So we had this planted.

Emily Swihart: 05:24

I ordered it as part of a a pollinator, you know, garden mix. I had planted it along the kind of the deck that is up by our pool, so, like, in the back of the landscape because it's gonna get tall. It fit well in the space. It has been there for, I'm gonna say, three years. Time is hard for me to keep track of, but it's been there a number of years, enough for me to know that I don't want it there anymore because we have had a number of years where red aphids have had just a heyday with this plant.

Emily Swihart: 06:01

So did a lot of cultural control with it. It was just never overly successful. They just kept coming to the point where non plant people were noticing, you know, they're like, what are those red things on your plant? And so that told me the population had gotten, like, just it was too much. So I did not care for that situation.

Emily Swihart: 06:23

And then also it is a prolific seeder, and so I'm still pulling it up, you know, like, elsewhere. It just keeps coming up here and there, and red aphids are on those little seedlings too. So I think the the plant itself is not inherently problematic. I think where I had it, it was not cited well. Like, in a naturalized, you know, prairie setting, I think it would do much it'd be much more behaved, there'd be a lot more natural predation happening on those aphids, and I wouldn't have to look at them so closely every time we go out, you know, out in the yard.

Emily Swihart: 06:59

So I just won't plant it again. I love sunflowers. This early sunflower, though, is just not not for me. So

Chris Enroth: 07:09

I I have Heliopsis Helianthodes, and it is the variety scabra and the cultivar bleeding hearts. And I never get to see a flower because the deer nip it off constantly. So that's probably why it's not a problem for me spreading because it never gets the flower in my

Emily Swihart: 07:28

garden. Gets the seed. We had a lot it it was beautiful. Yeah. It's beautiful.

Emily Swihart: 07:33

You know, the the flowers are, you know, a couple inches in diameter, like bright yellow, prolific. You know? Of course, you know, you get the seeds afterwards, but, you know, from an aesthetic standpoint, it was beautiful. It just wasn't fitting the needs, and then with the prolific seeding, I don't have time for that. And my patience, as I get older, is also wearing out with having to keep pulling out plants that I just I don't need to have.

Emily Swihart: 07:57

So we can try other things is my attitude.

Chris Enroth: 08:01

So that level of maintenance, probably the the big reason. And and I think when I you know, we go and visit different gardens or we see pictures and we're exposed to a lot of different styles of gardening and landscaping, and maintenance is the major factor I think people need to consider when selecting plants and picking them. Of course, there's also the cultural requirements of sun, water, shade, all that stuff. But how much time and energy do you want to devote to these plants? And, also, what's your style of gardening?

Chris Enroth: 08:31

So if you I have gardens where the it's very traditional. You know, the plants will not touch. You know? Oh, you're this little plant here. You stay in your spot.

Chris Enroth: 08:40

Your plant's here. But then I have my my pollinator gardens and other gardens throughout the landscape. There's a lot of competition happening where maybe I can devote a little bit more higher maintenance plant because I'm not necessarily maintaining it. They're competing with each other, and so there's different styles. So just because it's on our list, folks, does not necessarily mean it should be on your list.

Chris Enroth: 09:03

It's just our personal experiences we're sharing with you today.

Emily Swihart: 09:06

Yeah. I'm glad you said that because it it is really not the plan. So many of the things that I have listed here are me issues, and I have

Chris Enroth: 09:13

admit that. It's all about I'm looking at my list and, like, that's all about me.

Emily Swihart: 09:21

Okay. Well, let's go. Ken, do you have a never never on your never ever?

Ken Johnson: 09:29

Yeah. So talking my wife and I were talking last night, thinking trying to think of plants that we would never plant again. We only came up with one. I'm sure there's others, but we just can't remember. Maybe because they're so terrible, we just blocked them out of our minds.

Ken Johnson: 09:42

But the one we came up with was the Malva sylvestris zebrina, or the hollyhock mallow zebra mallow. So it's got purple, white kind of striped flowers. It's a really pretty plant, but this one also was a prolific self seeder. And we had it planted with columbine, and it was starting to choke out columbine. We were pulling this stuff three, four, five years later.

Ken Johnson: 10:07

It's was still popping up. So that that one has made our never again what we plant. So yeah. Pretty big and not worth for us, not worth the maintenance of trying to thin it out and and keep it under control.

Emily Swihart: 10:21

Yeah. It's beautiful. But there's so many plants that will behave. Like and that's part of the fun of growing, and at least that's why I have adopted the attitude of I'll just try something else because there's so many other good ones that we could give a shot to. Maybe they'll turn out to be never agains, but yeah.

Emily Swihart: 10:43

Well,

Chris Enroth: 10:44

my first never again is based on the fact that I don't like this the way this plant tastes. Pink celery. Now, Ken, you told me. Plant this celery. It's gonna have pink stems.

Chris Enroth: 11:01

It's gonna be pretty. And I also had a master gardener who said I told them, oh, I don't I'm not really a fan of celery, the flavor. And they're like, oh, that's because you've never had homegrown celery. Well, let me tell you, pink celery, at least the ones that I planted, the the stems were not pink. They were green.

Chris Enroth: 11:18

They maybe had a pinkish tinge to them, and the flavor was overwhelmingly celery flavor. It was it was way too much. So, again, if you like the flavor of celery, if you like the, the the chance of getting pink stems, you should grow this one. But I'm not going to plant this one ever again. I've learned my lesson.

Chris Enroth: 11:44

If you're not gonna eat it and it's not maybe it's your aesthetic aesthetically pleasing, don't grow it.

Ken Johnson: 11:52

Yeah. We've grown it for a couple years now. We've always gotten pink. Last year, when we picked it, it was during the drought, and it was it was rather intense. I picked some last week.

Ken Johnson: 12:05

Picked couple from different plants, and some of them are weren't too bad. And there's others. Yeah. It's really strong celery. Your tongue almost went numb after eating it.

Ken Johnson: 12:13

So if if you don't like celery, it's probably not one for you.

Chris Enroth: 12:17

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 12:19

Yeah. I grew some green just some green celery last year. And let it grow grow, like, long through the season, like, way, you know, like, way into the fall, and it still had that, like, really strong flavor to the point where we froze it and then use it in soups and whatnot. And I didn't need to grow it this year because you don't you need to you can cut it in half. You don't need as much celery in your chicken noodle soup when you use a homegrown celery.

Emily Swihart: 12:46

So I will I'll follow your trend of things that you're growing just because you don't like eating. And I'm gonna go ahead and jump to my cauliflower. I don't like cauliflower. I like growing things, and so I grew it for a couple of years, and it's challenging to grow. You know, cauliflower can kinda be fickle.

Emily Swihart: 13:08

So when you work really hard to get, you know, ahead and then it you don't even like eating it, that feels like it was not worth all the effort. I would have a hard time I didn't plant it soon enough in the season. Again, these are my issues. Right? So I didn't plant it soon enough in the season.

Emily Swihart: 13:26

And so I struggled when the heat of the summer hit, and then I wouldn't get it planted soon enough in this, you know, late summer to get a fall to get a fall harvest, and so that was problematic. And then when I did finally, it was you know, there was insect problems, and you have to net them or shade them, you know, for some of the different cultivars. And just I don't even, like, I don't even, like, get at the grocery store. So why would I spend so much time growing it when I could I could do other things? So cauliflower.

Emily Swihart: 13:56

All the colors, white, yellow, purple, all of them just passed.

Ken Johnson: 14:03

Yeah. I've kinda gotten that way. Not necessarily never with cauliflower or broccoli. They just they take up a lot of room for not a whole lot of of yield either. So they're they're approaching my think twice on my list.

Chris Enroth: 14:18

I was just curious if either of you choose to grow plants because you feel like it might make you better at your job. You know, do you grow cauliflower? Because maybe you've had cauliflower questions coming. Like, well, maybe I can help people more if I've tried growing this. Is that ever a thought with with either of you when you're selecting plants to grow?

Chris Enroth: 14:41

Like like, I maybe I should try this for work. And then should we be getting stipends for this for our own home gardens?

Emily Swihart: 14:52

Well, there's a thought.

Chris Enroth: 14:53

There you go.

Emily Swihart: 14:56

I do. I I I do consider the job when I'm planting the garden. Yeah. I I I mean, I you guys love what we do too. Like, we're so blessed to have this be our job.

Emily Swihart: 15:12

Like, I don't think any any of us ever turn it off. And so we're always thinking, like, what could we plant at home? Or, like, what are we learning from colleagues? Or what if you know, going to conferences and, like, oh, that's intriguing. Like yeah.

Emily Swihart: 15:23

Like, we love this stuff. So, yes, it sometimes has worked out, sometimes it hasn't. As I have aged, as I've gotten busier, you know, I am trying to be more discerning when I'm, you know, looking at things like, oh, that's a fun variety, then I'll have to I try to be more mature about it and say, like, do I actually want to grow this, or does it just look enticing, you know, in the catalog, in the middle of winter, when I would really like to be gardening instead of sitting inside? So

Chris Enroth: 15:52

Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 15:52

I'm I'm not great at it, but I try. That's my goal.

Ken Johnson: 15:59

Yeah. There's a lot of stuff that we grow just because I've heard about it through work. So so, yeah, that sounds interesting. We'll try it, and here we are.

Chris Enroth: 16:08

Yeah. I I I spend a lot of time growing stuff in my yard for work. So just was a thought I had when I was watering a few weeks ago. Nonstop because it didn't rain. Emily, we have a couple common plants on our our never again list or at least our, the you know, we we don't really like list.

Chris Enroth: 16:28

So I I wanna talk to you about maples. Can can we discuss maples? You like trees. Why why maples?

Emily Swihart: 16:39

We have too many. Okay. So so yeah. I don't have I mean, maples are are native. They have a lot of, you know, wildlife value.

Emily Swihart: 16:51

They're beautiful as specimen trees in our landscape. The challenge that I have with maples, and this is all maples, is that we just have too many of them. And we have to consider lessons that we've learned in the past from, you know, Dutch elm disease. You know, we have emerald ash borer having come through and taken out all of our you know, almost all of our ash trees. And, you know, from urban tree inventories that I've been, you know, a participant in and have, like, looked at and seen, and you can find a lot of these online for different, you know, villages or communities.

Emily Swihart: 17:26

We just have so many in our communities because of those reasons. You know? They're beautiful. They're fast growing. They have good fall color.

Emily Swihart: 17:34

They kinda, like, check a lot of the boxes that people are looking for, but that doesn't set us up well for potential threats when it comes to, you know, the urban forest. And there are certain there are certainly a lot of threats to maples in the in the urban forest, and we should be paying attention to those. So I don't need hate mail. One of my favorite absolute favorite trees in the entire world is a sugar maple. It's one that was at my mom and dad's, and I've watched like, I've grown up with it, and it's a it's a magnificent tree.

Emily Swihart: 18:06

But we took down some elm at their place a few years ago, and we did not plant any more maples. Right? We we diversified their landscape, and I think that we need to be making decisions for our own landscape, looking at what is in and around our neighborhood, our community, you know, in the Midwest. So that's why I'm a never Maple person. Until we have fewer of them and we have more diversity in our urban landscape and our, you know, residential landscapes, I just can't I can't recommend them.

Emily Swihart: 18:41

Why do you why why are you? Do you have the similar feelings, or am I missing something? You're just angry about good fall color.

Chris Enroth: 18:48

I can't stand it. Drives me mad. No. I I I think I I hear exactly what you're saying with, especially that that urban, forestry, fabric. In the that same growing environment, I see so many problems with the it's mainly hybrid maples Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 19:10

Because they can be grown so easily, so quickly. The nursery industry loves to produce these because they don't have to have as many inputs as some of these other trees out there, which means there's lots of production issues when it comes to that. So you put this hybrid maple, whatever it is in the ground, and, you know, maybe it looks good for you for the next five to ten years. But usually by year ten, say maximum, that's when I get the phone call. Like, what's wrong with my tree?

Chris Enroth: 19:39

Like, oh, well, it's girdling roots. It was planted too deep. You know? It's got splits in the bark because it's a thin barked tree and, you know, or you get lots of other branching structural issues with that tree. So tons of issues in the urban world as well.

Emily Swihart: 19:56

Yeah. Hopefully. Oh, I was I was gonna say, like, yes, that is definitely a reason to reconsider maples in a landscape too is that they just don't thrive. Like, we put them we force them into a landscape that they're just not going to to live their best life in. And so then you have maintenance issues, and people, you know, call with, you know, tree decline.

Emily Swihart: 20:18

I had a call just the other day too about it. And especially when it's hot and dry, we have compacted soils. We have, you know, sun scald. We have you know, it just maples are are woodland trees, and they're not really meant to be in hot, dry, harsh urban environments. And then these hybrids too, like, they have started to become invasive in our woodland areas, and so Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 20:43

Causing some additional challenges.

Chris Enroth: 20:46

Yeah. There there's also a big impact in that rural landscape too, you know, where we're Yeah. Historically an oak hickory prairie savannah. That's at least in our part of the state what what we historically are. Now that doesn't mean that's what the future holds for our natural ecosystems, which is something I'm trying to accept that I don't need to hold on so tightly to historical plant communities.

Chris Enroth: 21:09

We have to plan for future plant communities. But when you look at the understory of maples that are shading out a lot of our oak hickory, which is food for a lot of wildlife, you know, there's not as many things that can eat a maple samara that could that is taking and using acorns and and hickory nuts and things like that. So, definitely a shift in plant communities, especially when it comes to maples. Don't don't plant them. And if everybody here listens, that still means your neighbor is gonna plant five.

Chris Enroth: 21:42

So tell your neighbor, and that means there's still gonna be a lot of maples being planted, but

Emily Swihart: 21:48

There.

Chris Enroth: 21:48

Yeah. Try something else.

Emily Swihart: 21:50

Well, and also talk to your community leaders. Know, I see a lot of maples being planted in the community. If for if, you know, private residents still wanna plant maples, okay. But maybe we can, you know, talk to our, you know, municipal, you know, grounds crews or arborists and, you know, just advocate for more diversity. If you need help with that, you know, Illinois Extension has a lot of good resources, and I think I'll volunteer all three of us to take those calls and talk about what else you could plant because there's a lot of good a lot of good things that you could plant instead of tree or instead of maples.

Emily Swihart: 22:23

Like, we should still be planting trees. Just

Chris Enroth: 22:25

Yeah. Ken is sitting there and says, don't don't volunteer me.

Emily Swihart: 22:30

I know.

Chris Enroth: 22:30

It contribute to this maple conversation.

Emily Swihart: 22:32

He doesn't want the hate mail.

Chris Enroth: 22:35

He's got a maple leaf tattooed on the back of his shoulder. So I didn't know you're Canadian, Ken.

Ken Johnson: 22:42

Canadian. Neither did I.

Emily Swihart: 22:45

You look it. You look the part.

Ken Johnson: 22:47

Yep. Crimson King

Chris Enroth: 22:50

Mhmm. Door Street. Norway Maple. Yeah. I just I wrote an article about Norway maples and and why they're awful.

Chris Enroth: 22:58

And yeah. Yeah. Go read the output. Put a link in that article below. You can read about why I don't like those.

Ken Johnson: 23:07

Wait. Nobody from Norway listens to this.

Chris Enroth: 23:10

Nothing against Norway maple. Norway. Yeah. Norway maples in Norway, but Illinois, different story.

Emily Swihart: 23:20

Maybe they don't like Illinois. Is there an Illinois maple in Norway? We should maybe they don't like it, and that's fine. I No offense.

Chris Enroth: 23:27

I only know of the the pecan or or the pecan tree that has Illinois in the scientific name. So Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Keep your carrier, Illinoisansis out of our country, USA.

Emily Swihart: 23:40

That took a turn. Ken, bring us back.

Chris Enroth: 23:42

We'll keep Are we recording? Alright. I guess there's a few more never plants that we should get through before we start doing our think twice. Commonality, Emily, you and I have are daylilies. Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 24:03

Ditch lilies as I like to call them. So you hate them? Did you just just just hate them? Just wanna burn them all?

Emily Swihart: 24:11

Sure. We'll follow we'll follow maples with my dislike of daylilies. Yeah. So this, I think, stems from okay. I will I will first say the flowers and the variety of of flower colors and and types is stunning, and I can appreciate that.

Emily Swihart: 24:35

My struggle with daylilies is that they are, first, everywhere. Just everywhere. Like, I and I kind of associate them with, like, you know, big box store landscapes or, like, rock mulch landscapes. Like, they they're very, very tough, and so I know why people love them for that reason. But the idea that they are low maintenance is something that I struggle to appreciate.

Emily Swihart: 24:59

So I spent a summer in my undergraduate on a maintenance crew, and I pretty much spent the entire summer pulling out leaves from daylilies that had died to make them look nice. And that is not low maintenance to me. And so I think to make them look really, really nice is to continually, you know, thin out the the leaves. And so that's my biggest beef with them, I guess. I just won't plant them.

Emily Swihart: 25:28

Yeah. Chris, what is your what are your thoughts on daylily?

Chris Enroth: 25:34

I was partially raised on bulbs at the Missouri Botanical Garden, and I worked with the horticulturist there who had an extreme dislike for day lilies. He did like to breed day lilies. Like, breeding day lilies, like, that's kind of fun. He enjoyed doing that stuff, but it was namely, he called them ditch lilies, the haemuricalis fulva. It's the orange daylily, that everybody probably from, like, the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties had in their front yard or threw in the ditch in the farm or whatever, and just an extreme dislike for that.

Chris Enroth: 26:09

And I think that I have inherited that, daylily snobbery, that, that opinion of daylily ditch lilies, I should say. Now there are neat day lilies out there that can be interesting and fun from a botanical perspective. But, yeah, I just don't I'm just a snob.

Emily Swihart: 26:30

Yeah. Isn't it interesting, though, how, like, different life experiences have shaped, you know, just some of our opinions about different plants? Mhmm. I'm sure that listeners have have a plant that they're just like, yeah. I feel the same way.

Emily Swihart: 26:45

Like, I was and that's great. Fine. You don't have to plant it. Nobody's gonna make you. No one's gonna make us plant our daylilies.

Emily Swihart: 26:52

If you wanna plant daylilies, go for it. Please don't plant invasive plants. Those are Yeah. You know? Those we would we would recommend never planting for real, never planting.

Emily Swihart: 27:02

These the plants we're discussing here are just ones that we find just opinionally not desirable.

Chris Enroth: 27:11

They make me physically ill just to look at them. No. That's not true. You know what's fun to do with daylily flowers is just to take them and squeeze them. Because then the the the water, the staph that comes out is that color.

Chris Enroth: 27:28

It's kinda cool. You can, like, kinda do, like you know, kids do a little tie dye stuff, and the flowers aren't poisonous or anything. So, yeah, they're they're fun to kinda mess with, and they only last a day. So you're not it's not like you're stealing tomorrow's flower show.

Ken Johnson: 27:45

I have to try that now.

Emily Swihart: 27:46

Yeah. Go home search I don't have any in my landscape, so I need to go find some.

Chris Enroth: 27:53

Ken's like, nope. Think I wanna make Chris angry ever. Ken, steer us back. Maybe you want to think twice. We're, like, we're we're really hating on some of these plants hard right now.

Chris Enroth: 28:07

Maples and daylilies.

Ken Johnson: 28:08

I'm gonna leave my email off the contact us part of the the

Emily Swihart: 28:12

share notes.

Ken Johnson: 28:17

Is that all the Nevers? Or are there

Chris Enroth: 28:19

There's some more Nevers.

Ken Johnson: 28:21

See, I'm out of Nevers.

Chris Enroth: 28:22

You might get some hate mail. You might get some hate mail if we mention this one, though, Emily. Mountain mint?

Emily Swihart: 28:28

Probably. Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 28:29

People love mountain mint.

Emily Swihart: 28:33

Yes. And so do again, these are meat issues. Alright? So these plants, I struggled to find I mean, there's the invasive species. And if we did if I went down that road, that would be what this is this entire podcast would be about.

Emily Swihart: 28:49

Like, we could talk invasive species. Of course, those are, like, never plants. I was trying to think of plants that I just have, you know, an issue with and have had some history with, and mountain mint is one of them. And it was wonderful. It was it was the best plant in my landscape for wildlife.

Emily Swihart: 29:10

I had just an abundance of wasps and bees and and mobs and butterflies. Like, it was overwhelming how many pollinators were visiting this plant. I cited it in the wrong place, didn't give it enough space, and was overly optimistic that this mint would not behave like its relatives, and it would behave, and it did not. And so, I did not set it up for success. So this is a me, you know, a me problem.

Emily Swihart: 29:37

And I was I've been fighting it for a while. It also was out competing my lead plant. And if I had to choose between the two, the lead plant won. So mountain mint is on there. I love mountain mint in, again, in, like, a native setting.

Emily Swihart: 29:53

This one just happened to be my formal landscape. I was hoping to be able to grow it and observe a lot of the wildlife that was attracted to it. And we did for a couple of years, and then it just it started really taking over, and I did not care for that. So I yeah. Do plant it in a natural in a natural setting, like, in, you know, a prairie or in a, you know, an area that you can let it do its thing.

Emily Swihart: 30:20

And and it would have competition as well, so it wouldn't be so so successful. But for me, we had to go in a different direction.

Chris Enroth: 30:33

Yep. It's sometimes it's hard to split up with a plant like that. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 30:38

When it's mutual. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 30:40

Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 30:41

It didn't it didn't like where you cited it, and you did not like how it behaved. So it's so long. You know

Emily Swihart: 30:47

Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 30:47

This other one you have on your list, though, Emily, is one that people like more than mountain mint in some cases. So you might have to go into hiding after this one. I'll let you say it. I'm I'm I'm scared.

Emily Swihart: 30:59

You won't even say it.

Chris Enroth: 31:00

I'm gonna take a step back from the microphone.

Emily Swihart: 31:03

I bet I bet there are some people that will agree with me, which is common milkweed. So I am not opposed to milkweed. I love milkweed. But common milkweed spreads by tubers or, excuse me, rhizomes. And this little characteristic means that it's quite aggressive in a home landscape, and it will pop up in a just anywhere.

Emily Swihart: 31:27

Lots of different places. So does world milkweed, which we will get to. That's a teaser for coming up. But, again, like, a right plant, right place, I did not have it in the right place. Like, I used to work with roadside managers, and we would put it along roadsides.

Emily Swihart: 31:46

And there, it can thrive. You can see it, like, kinda colonize, you know, back slopes of ditches, and that's great. That's where it should be. It should not be in my formal landscape where it's just gonna pop up randomly. And it's large.

Emily Swihart: 32:01

It's a very large plant, and so, you know, popping up right in front of my in the front of my flower bed. You gotta take it out, and nobody wants to take out milkweed because we all wanna save monarchs. And so this one, again, we just we had to go our separate ways. So I am not opposed to milkweed. I have butterfly milkweed in my landscape.

Emily Swihart: 32:19

I've got world milkweed in the landscape. I've got swamp milkweed in my landscape, which behaves a little better. Just common milkweed. Just didn't make the cut. Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 32:30

Yeah. They frequently discourage people from planting that in their yards unless they can contain it.

Chris Enroth: 32:37

Yeah. Well, we we passed the gauntlet of never again plants. Ken, I know this one all too well of the think twice plants. Now I would think would be on your never again list, but you would think twice about this one, the river oats. You you would not burn it down to the ground.

Ken Johnson: 32:59

Northern sea oats. I have burned it down well, I wanna burn down to the ground, but it's right next to our garage. And our but this one, yeah, we planted it and did not anticipate how readily and easily it was going to spread. So this is one. Pulled out a big pot bunch of it, but now it's spread all over the place.

Ken Johnson: 33:20

And I'm hoping that the where we've got it planted, it it's more established now. So, hopefully, that stuff will maybe keep it in check a little bit. And we moved it. It was in full sun. We moved some back into our backyard further back in our backyard where it's more shade.

Ken Johnson: 33:35

I'm gonna see if that behaves a little better. It's not quite as aggressive back there. I've also got a plan next to gray headed coneflower back there. So I'm gonna let them duke it out and see

Chris Enroth: 33:47

Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 33:48

Who wins. But, yeah, that that is when we would definitely think twice, sight it a little better, maybe a little more of a contained area so it doesn't go quite as wild. And I kinda got in the habit of of pulling off the seed heads too just so that helps that much more. Because the birds don't eat all of it, or I don't even know if they ate any of it. There's so much of it they probably did, but he just didn't notice.

Ken Johnson: 34:13

So so that that made my think twice about that one.

Emily Swihart: 34:20

I've got the same situation happening with my River Oaks. It's I actually really like where I have mine. It's kind of it is like a side yard. It gets morning sun, and it seems to be I I wish you good luck with your strategy of planning to get in in a shadier location. Mine's popping up in different places, but I actually am trying to fill in that space.

Emily Swihart: 34:45

And so, hopefully, we can compare notes later. But, yeah, it does. It it it helps fill in the landscape. It's free plants, Ken. It's free plants.

Ken Johnson: 34:57

Bills it in very well.

Emily Swihart: 34:59

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Alright, Chris. So I admitted that I'm not a fan of common milkweed, but you have one on here that is a beloved shrub.

Emily Swihart: 35:14

And Mhmm. Entire gardens have been dedicated to this this plant. So What's up?

Chris Enroth: 35:23

Yeah. My think twice. Not necessarily means that I would not plant it again, but definitely would think twice is the old arborvitae shrub or arborvitae. However you want to say it, but the deer find it delicious. And it I see arborvitae whether you are in the country or if you are in, like, Downtown Springfield, there are deer damage on these shrubs where they have eaten it up as high as they can go.

Chris Enroth: 35:56

My my wife, she found an arborvitae shrub. She really likes she's like, this is beautiful. I love this. I didn't know they made plants like that. I'm like, oh, yes.

Chris Enroth: 36:05

Probably one of the most common landscape plants out there these days, but let's

Ken Johnson: 36:09

put

Chris Enroth: 36:09

it in our yard. I I could feel the deer just seeing me put this plant this thing in the yard, and they're like, you know what? Let's give this guy some hope. Let's not touch this thing for a couple months, and they left it alone. And about at the end of the growing season, I finally noticed the top, my arborvitae, after I'd really watered it well, got it established, the top got totally chewed off by the deer.

Chris Enroth: 36:37

And it's been a fight ever since. So my battle with the wildlife is why I do not like arborvitae. It is also a very common shrub. I it act I I mean, I do like it. It works really well in some certain circumstances and settings, but, I have also planted a juniper, a eastern red cedar right next to the arborvitae.

Chris Enroth: 36:59

And guess who's not getting eaten by the deer? That thing, which, again, that juniper, also has problems. Some some people don't like it. I love it, And I will grow more of those eastern red cedars and less of those arborvitae.

Ken Johnson: 37:19

You don't have any neighbors with apples, do you?

Chris Enroth: 37:22

I got a crabapple right next to me covered in apple scat. Oh. It's the neighbors. Like, oh, look at those leaves falling down. Oh, they're covered in apple scab.

Chris Enroth: 37:32

And now I'm just gonna wait for the

Ken Johnson: 37:33

No.

Chris Enroth: 37:34

The rust. Cedar rust, yeah, to show up. Mhmm. Which will be great pictures, but great pictures.

Emily Swihart: 37:40

I do love on those. I I understand the problem that they are, but I do love the

Chris Enroth: 37:46

Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 37:47

The form of that bright orange. So, anyways well, I'll provide I can that's fair. That's fair. I don't wanna admit mine. I'm fussing.

Emily Swihart: 38:00

Okay. My thing twice this year and perhaps in the few coming years is vegetable gardens just in general because of our schedule. I'm trying to be realistic, and it's disappointing looking at my vegetable garden right now. And so I am going to think twice about doing the size of vegetable garden that we do traditionally and kind of what we plant out there, really, like, narrowing it down, trying to be more disciplined about it, and appreciating that through work, I have access to different gardens, and I can you can live vicariously through the great work that our master gardeners do, and they can share their successes with me. And so I'm gonna I'm a think twice about vegetable gardening.

Emily Swihart: 38:46

Maybe I'll just be need to hit pause maybe. This might not be the season for me, which is okay. So

Chris Enroth: 38:54

That is okay. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 38:56

I was I was getting to that point earlier this year, but everything got in the ground and hasn't died yet. So setting myself up for failure for next year, but that's okay.

Emily Swihart: 39:08

Yep. I might need you guys to send me this podcast, like, as a reminder come, like, December, January, just on repeat. Like, remember, you were reconsidering your life choices. Just wanted to check-in. It's I mean, it's hard.

Emily Swihart: 39:27

I've been vegetable gardening my entire life, and there's nothing better than, you know, having the success of, like, harvesting your own produce and and being able to share. That's, you know, so much fun. And with my kids too, I grew up vegetable gardening. I have very fond memories of it. And I always thought I had this, like, image of me doing it with my kids, and they have absolutely well, one has absolutely no interest in vegetable gardening.

Emily Swihart: 39:54

The other one does, but he's just not as dedicated to the weeding part of it. And so we're we'll find our rhythm. It'll be okay, but I am thinking twice.

Chris Enroth: 40:05

The the hope is maybe they're not interested now, but my hope is when my kids grow up is that they say, yeah. You know how dad was always working outside in the garden? That was really cool. In reality, they're probably like, man, that was really dumb. He could just gone to the grocery store and bought his food.

Chris Enroth: 40:23

So I hope they think highly of it when they're older, but it makes them wanna try it out. But

Emily Swihart: 40:29

If it gives you any if it gives you any hope My family had a success story that's exactly that. My sister is a phenomenal gardener now, and she hated gardening. And I don't think she would be upset if I I said that. Like, my brother and I garden growing up, we were outdoors in the garden all the time, and she was out there too, but it was begrudgingly. Whereas we were volunteering to be out there, and now she has a beautiful garden.

Emily Swihart: 40:56

She has, you know, an abundance of produce, and I'll probably just visit her a lot more next year

Ken Johnson: 41:02

Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 41:02

For for reasons unknown. It's just a mystery why I keep showing up more. So I think your kids I think you there's there's sound logic. There's sound logic to that. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 41:20

Alright. Other oh, Ken. Another think twice plant.

Ken Johnson: 41:28

Yeah. So I this is the one I really like, but, again, it's it's tad on the aggressive side. It's passion flower or may pop. So this one we planted fairly close to our property line, and it keeps popping up in our neighbor's yard. And I'm not sure they really appreciate it.

Ken Johnson: 41:45

So we usually go over every once in a while and pull out all the all the shoots coming out all over the place. And the the trellising we had set up for, it was just rope in between t posts that's all rotted out. So now it's sprawling everywhere, crawling all over our our day lilies, our rose bushes, and smothering all of that. So, this is when I know, I I would grow it again, but it it would have to be cited a lot better, and did not anticipate it popping up eight feet away, 10 feet away from where we planted it. So this is another one where it'd be an area we have a lot more room and probably somewhere better to let it grow up because it would top out that t post trellis that we made every year.

Ken Johnson: 42:33

So they definitely need more room or, again, in an area where it can be contained. Maybe treat it like bamboo or something like that, put down root barriers and all that stuff. Those got cool flowers, and carpenter bees really like it, which could be a a plus or minus depending on your perspective on carpenter bees.

Chris Enroth: 42:58

I love carbs. And

Emily Swihart: 43:01

I love passion fruit flowers. They're beautiful.

Chris Enroth: 43:07

Well, my one of my space reasons also is sweet corn. I just don't have enough room to grow sweet corn. I'd love to. So it's on my think twice list just because I can't grow it, and maybe one day I'll find a spot to grow enough sweet corn. But when I was out doing a little bit of maintenance on some of our roses in our yard, I just was cursing the person who thought roses would be a good landscape plant.

Chris Enroth: 43:37

And, like, they're covered in thorns. Who would make this the most popular landscape plant back at, like, the fifties up till the turn of the century. Like, everyone had roses back then. Now roses are really on the out. Pretty much anyone what anyone grows now is a knockout because that's the only one that doesn't get a horrible disease and, die off.

Chris Enroth: 43:59

But but still, I I still have the roses. I don't think I would plant them ever again, but I will maintain what I have, and I will invest in some Kevlar gloves and sleeves or something. I don't know. But just roses. I I I really would think twice before, yeah, planting those again.

Chris Enroth: 44:21

However, the smell of an old fashioned rose is beautiful.

Ken Johnson: 44:27

Yeah. That's what that's what we've planted. They stay away from the hybrid Mhmm. Tea rose really don't really smell. But they have they've got some some of them want to be out of some really gnarly thorns or are they actually thorns or what are they actually?

Chris Enroth: 44:41

Prickles. They're prickles. Yeah. Weaves. Has a prickle.

Ken Johnson: 44:46

One of ones who has nice green, bright red prickles on them, which is kinda pretty until they get older, then they're all the same color. But

Chris Enroth: 44:53

Could could be rose rosette disease, though. Or is that just the, you

Ken Johnson: 44:58

know, the Just the just the thorns are or prickles are red. Stem's still green. Mhmm. And it's not all compact yet.

Chris Enroth: 45:08

Yet. Keep an eye

Emily Swihart: 45:10

on it. Maybe you

Chris Enroth: 45:11

have an maybe you have

Ken Johnson: 45:12

a new cultivar on your head. If it is, I got lots of pictures I can take.

Emily Swihart: 45:18

So my I will couple of flowers that I would like to grow. Roses, yes. I mean, they're intoxicating. Those, you know, like the nothing beats heirloom rose. Just but two cut flowers I wanna grow, and I again, I'm not doing them justice, would be stock, which also has the most intoxicating fragrance.

Emily Swihart: 45:48

And then snapdragons, which are fun and just unique and super cool. But I do not get my life together in time to give them a start in the spring that they need, and then the cultivation of them. It just it's I've got a few blooming right now, and I go stick my face in the stock every once in a while to remember what I was trying to do. I just had these, like, visions of these, like, robust bouquets and just loving, you know, loving to to share them with folks, and it just it hasn't worked out a couple of years now too. It just isn't this year where everything was kind of a epic fail.

Emily Swihart: 46:27

But I it's just like the snapdragons, they fall over. I don't get them, you know, netted in time or staked in time, and so they, like, fall over. And for those varieties that are for cut flowers or have such a a more robust, like, a long stem, and they fall, and then they start reaching towards the sun. So they get these, like, curves to them, which is fun, but not great for a vase. And so just I'll think twice.

Emily Swihart: 46:52

If I if I do them again, it'll be I would need to dedicate and just, like, really dedicate more time and resource to cultivating them in a way that it's gonna produce what I want it to produce. Otherwise, I just feel bad. Like, I just feel bad for not giving these beautiful flowers what they need and letting them reach their full potential. So maybe.

Ken Johnson: 47:15

Yeah. The the flowers we grow, we have no intention of ever cutting them because we do not take the time that's required to actually Yeah. Train them and and grow them like you would need to to get them to cut. So we have all our snapdragons here, all the 90 degree angles because they flopped over and Mhmm. Zinnias are, you know, flopping over and all that.

Ken Johnson: 47:38

So we've given up on all that.

Chris Enroth: 47:41

It it's important to know that flower farmers train those. They have, like, netting and stuff that they use to support them and grow them so they get the nice long stems for arrangements. And so you do that in your you you do that plant them in your yard, and and you don't train them or support them, and then the first storm that blows through knocks them over.

Emily Swihart: 48:02

Yeah. Yeah. It's labor intensive to get really good long stem flowers for cutting. And so I will support local growers that are doing it and reconsider next year. So but Ken, your one of them listed here is one I just have the most fond memories of like, the tactile nature of them as a kid.

Emily Swihart: 48:27

I love this plant. I like, my grandmother grew it. So what what is it with you and lamb's ear?

Ken Johnson: 48:33

So lamb's ear yeah. So this is actually lamb's ear we got from my grandparents' house and transplanted at ours. But first couple years, it was fine, and then it wasn't because it started spreading everywhere, started flowering. We had stuff popping up everywhere. But it's a cool plant.

Ken Johnson: 48:48

It's got the real fuzzy soft leaves. We got a lot of wool carder bees that'll visit it. They'll take the hairs off for their their nests and stuff. But for us, basically, it's because it's aggressive and spreads everywhere is is my reason. I think it once it starts flowering, it kinda gets leggy and I think, kinda ugly looking.

Ken Johnson: 49:09

I like it more compact. So it's one you know, we've got it. Probably not gonna get rid of it, but I'm definitely not going to plant more of it because it's it's doing it itself.

Emily Swihart: 49:22

Yeah. That's fair.

Chris Enroth: 49:27

But you're still gonna, like, teach your kids it's a cool plant. Right?

Ken Johnson: 49:31

Like, And it's still good. Every time I walk by, they still

Chris Enroth: 49:33

Still touch it. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 49:35

Yep.

Chris Enroth: 49:36

It's kind of an obsessive thing now. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 49:39

Yep.

Chris Enroth: 49:43

But can you have one more think twice? And I I that's interesting. I didn't even know, you know, it was as common of a plant to grow up here. And you said I thought you you've you've tried it. Peanut.

Chris Enroth: 49:58

Peanut. What's wrong with the peanuts?

Ken Johnson: 49:59

So we grew peanuts for a couple of years. With these, you know, at least for a week, started them indoors and transplanted them. I don't think we've got enough long long enough growing season to direct seed them. They're cool. I mean, they're fun.

Ken Johnson: 50:13

Enjoyed growing them, but the amount of space they take and at least the amount of yield we got, really wasn't worth it. I think we had them in a four by eight area, and we got enough peanuts to fill a nine by 13 pan, and that was it. So it was fun. I knew it one of those I would recommend anybody try growing it once or twice, but you're not going to get enough to have more than unless you're planning a huge area. Kinda going back to that broccoli calve or the the space it takes up is not for me, anyway, is not worth the yield you get off of it.

Emily Swihart: 50:50

It's good to know. Sometimes it's okay to do that, though. Like, just knowing that going in just for the experience of it. But

Ken Johnson: 50:57

Yeah. I'd say try growing it once or twice. And if you really like it, keep at it. I mean, I don't don't think you're gonna be filling bags full of peanuts and stuff if you're doing it unless you're dedicating quite a bit of space to growing it.

Emily Swihart: 51:12

Good to know. Mhmm. Chris, you have lemon seeds?

Chris Enroth: 51:18

Just don't do it. You know? Okay. You're gonna be tempted. You're gonna cut open that lemon.

Chris Enroth: 51:23

You're gonna see those seeds, and your kids are gonna be like, let's grow a lemon tree. And and just know that after I spent ten years growing a lemon seed, so a lemon tree from seed, at the bequest of my then, like, two year old kid who's now 13, they just don't. So, I mean, do it. Do it. It's fun.

Chris Enroth: 51:47

Don't listen to me. But let me tell you what I did. I grew this tree. So even if you have a thornless lemon tree that you're harvesting lemons from, that tree very often from seed will revert back to a thorn or, you know, a thorny tree, which is what this one did. So I spent the next ten years getting poked and prodded every time I had to move this thing inside and outside and all over the place.

Chris Enroth: 52:16

Lemon trees are very neat in that every part of that plant has those aromatics, so you can take the leaf, crush it, smells like a lemon. Every time you pruned it, it smelled like lemons. And so I never got any actual lemons from it, though. And then the the kicker was as I was moving it in this last fall into the house, I got poked really bad by the by this tree, like, drew blood, dropped the plant, crushed my foot because it was a a massive pot. Thought I broke my foot.

Chris Enroth: 52:49

And that winter, that lemon tree got spider mites in my basement, and I didn't do anything about it. Now it's dead. So I think it's just it's a vendetta against a particular lemon tree that I am against here.

Emily Swihart: 53:07

The way you said that, and now it's dead, it's like an exclamation mark.

Ken Johnson: 53:13

It's like it's almost like you gave it spider mites on purpose.

Chris Enroth: 53:16

Yes. Did I tell the spider mites where to find this lemon tree? Maybe. Did I give them a little extra money to do that? Maybe.

Chris Enroth: 53:24

Did I did I actually have them go kill the tree? No. I didn't do that part, so I'm blameless in this.

Ken Johnson: 53:31

But it's In my experience with with citrus, don't know about your how bad your thorns were, but those thorns, those make roses look gentle and pathetic.

Chris Enroth: 53:41

Mhmm. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 53:42

They've got some of those can have some pretty gnarly, very long, very thick thorns on them. Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 53:50

Yeah. They burn almost. It's almost like getting hit hit by a locust thorn. It's like, I I don't know if they have the the chemical on them that makes it burn when it when it gets into your skin, but, boy, don't like

Ken Johnson: 54:04

No. Cuddle with the roses after dealing with those.

Chris Enroth: 54:07

Yeah. Yeah. Cuddle with the roses. Oh my goodness. Well, Emily, let's round out our think twice plants with this this last one here, and you teased it already.

Emily Swihart: 54:18

I did.

Chris Enroth: 54:18

What is

Emily Swihart: 54:19

Yeah. Old

Chris Enroth: 54:20

a sclepus gene that you're against.

Emily Swihart: 54:25

Yeah. This is just world milkweed. Again, it's that spreads by rhizome. This one is more, petite in nature, and so I can tolerate it. It is all throughout my landscape right now.

Emily Swihart: 54:38

And I I have, at least for the time being, have come to accept it as kind of a filler. It's just filling in all the empty spaces, and that's okay. From an aesthetic standpoint, I don't love it, but I'm gonna tolerate it because, you know, it's good for the monarchs. And we did have some monarchs flying around the other day that the kids got excited about. And I've seen more this is anecdotally, but I have seen more, monarch, caterpillars on my world milkweed than any of the other milkweeds that I've ever, cultivated.

Emily Swihart: 55:10

And so, just for that reason, I'm I'm just gonna go ahead and let it be because, you know, really want some more monarchs in the landscape. And so I would think twice about planting it here, though, like, in a in a formal bed. So it's gonna stay. I have no intentions of taking any of them out. Once in a while, they'll be one sacrifice just because it's, like, you know, in a walkway or somewhere, but it's gonna it's gonna stay.

Emily Swihart: 55:37

Not sure I would plant it again in this particular location.

Chris Enroth: 55:41

Yeah. No. Anecdotally, yeah, I I feel like I see way more monarch caterpillars on world milkweed, and and all three of us were in the same room. I think there was some research that was cited where it's like, oh, no. That's not the case.

Chris Enroth: 55:55

It was, you know, a a different milkweed.

Emily Swihart: 55:58

I I think it was swamp, wasn't it, that they were?

Chris Enroth: 56:00

Swamp. Yeah. And swamp's pretty pretty common find. You can commonly find monarchs on that too, but I was surprised it wasn't world.

Emily Swihart: 56:07

Mhmm. Yeah. One year, one of the first years, I think it was year two that I had this, and it was just it had behaved for a few years before it went crazy. It almost, like, decimated my my world milkweed. It looked, like, really terrible.

Emily Swihart: 56:21

There were so many caterpillars on it. And so that that combined with, like, the age of the kids that that happened, like, they were really, really excited about it. And so little affection for it, but, again, it it just it spreads away by rhizomes, and so that that is challenging with any plant no matter what it is.

Chris Enroth: 56:40

Well, everyone, we people might be questioning if we are actually horticulture educators because I think this is one of the longest podcasts we've done where we have complained about plants. So let let's end on a bright note. Let's, like, give them, like, a a quick, like, these are great plants. Try these puppies or maybe these are our must plant every year personally for us. Ken, what must you plant every year?

Ken Johnson: 57:10

Alright. So I've got three ish here. So sunflowers, we plant sunflowers every year. We've kinda gotten away from the much to my dismay, from the twelve, thirteen, 14 foot single headed, Now they're a foot big flowers to more of the branching types just because you get more bloom longer, and they don't droop nearly as much. So we grow sunflowers every year.

Ken Johnson: 57:34

We've been doing that for almost as long as we've been in our house. I think it's almost expected of us now from people in the neighborhood. Snapdragons, we grow those every year. We have got some patches that basically self seeded, every year for the last several years. We've actually had a few over winter and then start growing again in the spring.

Ken Johnson: 57:58

And then vegetable crop wise, there's a lot of vegetables that grow every year. That'd be a long list, but I'm gonna go with cover crops. We started doing that. What have we been doing this four or five years now, with, like, cereal rye. Usually, in some, tillage radish and, clover.

Ken Johnson: 58:17

Those three usually do every fall, And then crimp that in in the spring, gives us good weed prevention. We do have a lot more soon as we have more slugs and roly pulleys and stuff. Sometimes those cause some issues for us. But I think, for me, anyway, that those the benefits far outweigh any extra damage we may get off of that stuff.

Chris Enroth: 58:42

Well, my must must plant is just for the easy win. It's kale. If you need an easy plant to throw out there, you don't have to eat it. The cabbage loopers and imported cabbage worm, they'll eat it for you. But put kale out in the landscape.

Chris Enroth: 59:01

It will do it will do fantastic. It'll survive your the winter almost without protection. Some sometimes you'll need protection for the winter months, but kale, hands down, easy win for you. But I guess if I could say, you know, must plant plant a tree, except a maple. If you wanna know a good list of diverse tree species to select from, contact your local extension office or Ken.

Ken Johnson: 59:28

I'll give you

Chris Enroth: 59:29

Or Emily or me.

Ken Johnson: 59:30

Under the can. I

Emily Swihart: 59:34

like that answer, Chris. That was a good one. Hard to follow, but I guess I'll try. So I'm willing to try almost anything not previously mentioned. I think we all are, and we've demonstrated that pretty pretty well.

Emily Swihart: 59:50

And that's part of the fun, right, of being a horticulturist and a gardener. So as long as it's not invasive, you know, when we haven't had a horrific experience with it before, like getting stabbed by a plant or dropping it on our foot or whatnot, we'll give it a shot. But my must plants, I have three of them, are garlic. I don't think in cooking, I don't think you can ever use too much garlic, and so I like to grow it. Because you plant it in the fall, and it's just it's so easy to grow if you get it in the ground around middle October.

Emily Swihart: 01:00:27

Some will say, like, around Halloween. I like to get it in just a little bit sooner than that. But around Halloween, then you harvest it around the July 4, and you dry them out, and you just it's I've always had a good luck with it and good success, and oh, it's so delicious. Just in all the forms. So garlic.

Emily Swihart: 01:00:44

And then tomatoes, they can complement each other in a culinary way, but I I did not always love tomatoes. I grew up actually not liking tomatoes, but they're so pretty and there's so many varieties that I kept trying them. And now I just I love eating tomato fresh out of the garden, putting it on sandwiches, on salads. Just like, they're so good. So I have to grow some at least some tomatoes.

Emily Swihart: 01:01:09

Night might need to show some more restraint next year. Traditionally, we grow about 40 plants, and I think maybe that's crazy. I think maybe that's too many. But so I'll have to grow at least some tomatoes. And then gladiolas because my dad always grew them, and I they're one and done, which is traditionally not a plant that I I go towards, but, like, gladiolas are just they're kinda have a a I have a thing for gladiolas, so I have to grow them.

Emily Swihart: 01:01:38

Those are my top top three must plants.

Chris Enroth: 01:01:42

The glads are in bloom right now around my area, and they are gorgeous. Yes. And they make a great cut flower too. You bring them in, throw them in a vase, big old tall thing.

Emily Swihart: 01:01:52

Mhmm. Yeah. Yep. I yeah. People can also a friend of mine turned me on to this.

Emily Swihart: 01:01:58

I would because my my family is very thrifty. You can treat them. They're a tender perennial, so you would could dig them up and overwinter them, you know, in a garage or whatnot. And I would do that my entire life. Well, a couple years ago, a friend told me she's like, I treat them like annuals.

Emily Swihart: 01:02:12

And she just, like, leaves them in the garden. And I don't know why. I had never it's one of those cultural things. Right? Like, it just never occurred to me to do that.

Emily Swihart: 01:02:22

And I try not to. I try to to overwinter them. But Yeah. Some years that that digging doesn't get done in time. And so that just kinda blew my mind, though.

Emily Swihart: 01:02:33

I was like, wait. What? So sometimes I plant, you know, gladiolus from the year before. Sometimes I have to buy new, but they're in the garden.

Chris Enroth: 01:02:44

Oh, a lot a lot of times people I I planted amaryllis in my yard for the first time this year, and it bloomed. It was beautiful. Yeah. So try these new things. Try new stuff.

Chris Enroth: 01:02:55

Yeah. And and maybe it'll work out, but maybe it won't. And then you can complain to all of your other gardening friends about all your duds.

Emily Swihart: 01:03:05

This is this is therapeutic. I hope you guys feel better.

Chris Enroth: 01:03:12

Oh, well, that was a lot of great information about some of our much needed garden therapy. I think that that we had to talk this through, folks. So thank you for being with there with us. Hopefully, you took something away, maybe something to try or if not to try or if you do try it, you know, learn from our mistakes and and and go on and garden and have fun with it. Well, the Good Growing podcast is a production of University of Illinois Extension, edited this week by Ken Johnson.

Chris Enroth: 01:03:40

Thank goodness you're back in town, Ken. And thank goodness you and Emily are, for being here, joining us to talk about our landscape woes.

Emily Swihart: 01:03:52

That is not how you normally do it. No. I'm supposed to say something.

Chris Enroth: 01:03:58

I Sam, the improv, it's been we're a little rusty. Yeah. We're a little rusty today.

Emily Swihart: 01:04:04

Stop going off script.

Chris Enroth: 01:04:06

Mhmm. Yes. But but thank you, Emily, for being here today. I do appreciate your in in in information, and I'm glad we could agree on this, especially those maples and those daylilies.

Emily Swihart: 01:04:18

Oh, it's my pleasure to join you guys. And yeah, you know, a lot of a lot of stuff was revealed, I think, about us today. So happy to join you.

Chris Enroth: 01:04:26

Everyone send Ken your peanuts.

Ken Johnson: 01:04:32

Yes. Thank you, Emily. As always, good conversation. Thank Chris. Let's do this again next week.

Chris Enroth: 01:04:39

Oh, we shall do this again next week. Water restrictions. Something that happens very rarely, but on occasion here in Illinois. We're gonna talk about that next week, about water in the landscape and some of those recommended products to maybe save us some water. Are they a good idea or are they not?

Chris Enroth: 01:04:58

Check us out next week. So listeners, thank you for doing what you do best and that is listening. Or if you're watching this on YouTube watching, and as always, keep on growing.

Emily Swihart: 01:05:20

Alright. So, Chris.

Chris Enroth: 01:05:23

Is that a fly, Ken?

Ken Johnson: 01:05:25

It keeps landing on my microphone. I hear it.

Emily Swihart: 01:05:28

Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 01:05:32

Sorry. I like, what it's like this buzzing sound that just, like it sounds just like a fly. So.

Emily Swihart: 01:05:39

My ear yeah. Stop recording.

Chris Enroth: 01:05:42

Working on it.

Ken Johnson: 01:05:43

Can't find the button.