Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with the University of Illinois Extension, coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today. Put on the pot. It's time to have a little bit of tea, a bit of tea as I say. And, you know I'm not doing this by myself.

I'm joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Hello, Chris. Unfortunately, I don't like tea.

Yes. What you describe it as what? What do you call it?

To me, they just taste like you're drinking a bunch of grass. So Grass

water. Yes. Well, some of us like our grass water. And the the particular tea we're talking about today is not actual tea, the the camellia plant. It is it is an herbal tea.

We are gonna be talking about the herb of the year as so denoted by the Herb Society of America, America. We are talking chamomile. So, Ken, tell me everything you know about chamomile. First of all, have you ever drank chamomile tea?

I I have not. I did ask my wife if she's had it. She said she has. She must have not had a very strong one because she said it tasted like water. So

I I will be right along there with her. I mean, it it has a an herbal flavor to it, but it very watered down. I'm not gonna say that we are using high quality, chamomile tea with that we bought. It's usually going down the that big old aisle, the breakfast aisle in the grocery store, and it's like, where's the cheapest bag of chamomile tea here? And that's what we get, which after my research, it looks like it's gonna be mostly dust.

So, maybe we'll spend a little bit more more money next time, and it will taste a little better.

Yes. From my bread, it's supposed to have floral, apple y, at least smell like apples ish. But, yeah, I've never I've never tried. Probably should have done that in preparation for this week. So maybe maybe after this, I'll try some.

And spit it out immediately. You know, your grass water. Yes. Well so I guess when we're talking about chamomile, it's important. I get maybe one we should say, how do you pronounce this here herb of the year?

So just in in doing some reading, I learned that the British folk pronounce it chamomile because the extra emphasis on the word is worth it. They they they tend to like chamomile over in in the Great Britain, also over in Europe in general. But here in America, we call it chamomile. And so I you guess you could call it whatever you want. I don't really I don't really care.

It's supposed to be what? Chamomile? Chamomile. That's probably the way it's supposed to be pronounced.

I think we usually spelled.

We usually mess things up.

Yeah. Yep. Like aluminum. Aluminum. Yes.

Mhmm. It's my favorite, word warm up, aluminum. Mhmm. So, Ken, when we are looking at chamomile, it's probably a good idea to distinguish this about what are we actually considering here because, chamomile, it is, the herb that is harvested, it is harvested of flower, and it has kind of, you know, it's sort of like a generic looking flower. You know, it looks a lot like lots of roadside weeds that you might see or find out here, in Illinois, like fleabane and stuff like that, but it has kind of a greenish yellow disc in the center, with white petals, just generally speaking.

But but so we're harvesting the flower, but there's multiple species here that we're actually dealing with, and not all of them are the primary one used in tea. So, Ken, could you distinguish it at least the two big ones out there? I know there are more, but there's we kick us off today with the two big different types of chamomile, chamomile out there.

We should have learned our lesson last week in scientific names, but, chamomile chamomileum nobile. So that's Roman or English chamomile. So that is a perennial plant. Could sometimes be used as like a ground cover, things like that. It is used, but it's got a little bit more of a, a bitter taste, from what I've read.

The one that people are probably gonna be primarily using or gonna be growing more than likely, at least here in The US, is the matriculcheria recuitida or German chamomile, sometimes called blue chamomile. And this is an annual. So you'd be planting this every year, letting it recede, and stuff. And the reason it's called blue chamomile, is because the essential oils are are blue, because they're what's the chemical? Chamizulene is formed during the distillation process.

When you get that essential oil, it's blue. So reading about this stuff, I kept seeing references to blue oil. I had no idea what they were talking about until I was like some paper finally spelled it out for somebody who doesn't know anything about chamomile.

Well, I was looking at these images of this blue, kinda distilled oil as it was injected into these jars of, probably lotions or something and, or just carriers for, putting this into soaps and things. But, it actually it was very pretty. It's a very pretty blue. Well, so I I did a little bit more reading about the scientific names of these two different plants, chamomile chamomileum noble noble, which is the, again, the Roman or English chamomile. And that one sticks.

I mean, that one's pretty solid. It used to have a name much longer ago. Linnaeus actually is the one who who named these way back when. But matricaria for the German chamomile, there is that is pretty much the name that is used in in a lot of the, like, seed companies and all the marketing for it. But a lot of the the taxonomists out there are really trying to encourage people to switch to the new genus name, which matches the Roman camel.

But I I don't know if it's gonna stick because everyone likes saying matricaria better than chamomelium or if that that's probably pretty close, chamomelium. But so, you know, again, I guess call it what you will. It seems like, Ken, we used to say scientific names are that's a solid thing. Like, we're you're not guessing when it comes to scientific names. I feel like we're guessing anymore with scientific names now as we get into the DNA of stuff.

Things are changing. All of this are.

Not only do we have our Roman or English chamomile and our German chamomile, But we also have some native weeds. Well, not native, but we also have our weeds, out in our own parking lots and driveways and sidewalks, that are also related to these. The one that I recall seeing most often, especially in, like, gravel drives is pineapple weed. This is, matricaria discordia. And it it's everywhere, at least here in Central Illinois.

I I see it all over the place. It it is essentially a much stouter, shorter looking version of, German chamomile. And the major difference though is that pineapple weed does not have any flower petals. So where the German chamomile has the white flower petals, the pineapple weed, no flower petals. So that's a good way to distinguish it.

It's supposed to smell like pineapple. Mhmm. Pineapple y, whereas German is apple y. Mhmm.

Yes. Yeah. Everything in that apple y world and somehow pineapple and apple are related.

And there's, another one, was it the Anthimus genus, are all look pretty similar. So stinking chamomile will be one. And you can imagine, there's not pleasant smelling, from that name. And I think those, the Anthimus, aren't those generally considered toxic? So you want to make sure you're not I think you're growing chamomile.

Well, if you're buying seeds, hopefully you're getting the actual stuff. But, you know, if you're just going out wild harvesting, make sure you're identifying those properly. So the stinking chamomile, the, or the anthemas genus, you'll get the flower, you cut that in half, the receptacle, the part that holds the flower is going to be solid. Whereas in German chamomile, that's hollow. Will be one way.

Because some of the the anthemas, I don't think have much of a a fragrance to them. So if you're you would be wild harvesting. Just be careful and make sure you're IDing the right thing.

Because it does not taste good. That has the word stinking in it for a reason. Another related, plant here is Dyer's chamomile. Now this is, Cota tentoria, and it's native to the Mediterranean slash East Asia. And the the primary method for this, what what it's used for is, true to its name, dyeing.

So dyes, yellow dye, orange ish dyes, are produced by the the flower, which is a much larger flower, more pronounced than the other chamomiles that we've mentioned before. It almost reminds me of, like, a a larger coreopsis type flower, like, landsleaf coreopsis, or prairie coreopsis flower. So very bright, vibrant yellow. And then even the stems, you can grind those up to produce a green dye. So it's called Dyer's chamomile, and you might also see that in, like, an herb garden somewhere, like, for demonstration purposes.

So it might not be necessarily one for use for tea, but but it would be one that what they would use for, dyeing, certain things, clothes, I guess, eggs, coming up here or potatoes in my my behalf.

I think it's all pretty much all of them. There's probably more out there, but those, I think, probably the ones that people are gonna be most most likely to encounter. But if you're, you know, if you're eating it, say more often than not, that's gonna be German, chamomile. So I'd assume with a name like German chamomile, that's all grown in Germany. Right?

Oh, I'm sorry, Ken. You are a little bit off the mark there. So most of the chamomile used for, like, consumption and teas and and beauty products, that is primarily grown in Egypt. And Egypt is is the the biggest grower worldwide, and it's also the biggest exporter worldwide. Now tell me, Ken, can you, wager a guess here?

Who's the primary importer? Who's the who loves chamomile the most? Germany. There you go. Yeah.

So that you know, I guess that's maybe how it got its name more so that, those Germans, they love their chamomile. And so, yeah, they are the primary importer here in the world. And, actually, we're really seeing a a big explosion in the world of chamomile. And it's being not only used for teas, but it is being now put into all different types of products from, like, soaps, oils, detergents. Ken, I think you even said it's being put into, like, baby diapers or something.

Like, it's now I

was searching for one of the cultivars, and that name just happens to be the same as a diaper company or something. And Mhmm. That's all that's all that would pop up was their diapers that have chamomile on it.

Well, that's that's a very soothed baby, I would say. But they expect because of this growth, chamomile is gonna be a $1,000,000,000 market by the year 02/1932. So it it is projected to grow. And, Ken, you even shared kind of an old fashioned way that they used to harvest chamomile, in The Middle East. I believe that's where that video was take sorry.

I don't think I think it may have been Spain.

Was it Spain?

I think. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Yeah. So the the the video, it's an older I think it was made in the early nineties.

Kind of a little documentary on chamomile being harvested, and they're growing out. You know, either picking by hand, because when you get just the flowers, that's the best quality. When you start mechanical harvesting like they do now, you get more stalks and then you got more processing you have to go through and that can impart off flavors, more bitterness if you get some of those stems and stuff in there. So but it has, like, sides, little catchers on them that they don't use, and it's pretty interesting.

I thought it was really interesting. I mean, they they took a lot of biomass off of that field, threw it into a a wagon, a cart, brought it into a big open air square type area where they, again, you know, they're they're they're basically working on getting those stems removed from those flower heads. And you're talking in the process of of a couple weeks, I believe, based on that video, and they're just slowly winnowing and and and and reducing that that that bulk, that mass until where they started with this these carts, big carts full of, of of chamomile, plants, flowers, stems, all of that. You know, they they brought it all down to a, like, a potato sack worth of, tea tea, flowers. So that was, like, pretty neat.

Yeah. I kept referring it to dust. So I'm not sure if it's, like, you know, the pollen or just letting those flowers crumble. So if you know that they weren't doing like the whole flowers you see sometimes in tea and stuff, and they were talking there, you know, the the the extras, the silage, the stems, and and all the leaves and all that. Traditionally, kind of folk medicine, people would give that to their animals.

But nowadays with more modern stuff that and this was in the nineties, that market's kinda fallen off for them. I don't know if it's come back or not. I doubt it. But so there was even though when they were harvesting that way, even the stalks and leaves and stuff were still being, used. Mhmm.

Yeah.

And they explained how they fit it in with their their rotation of other crops in that field. So then I I went, and I'm like, well, what does it look like today? And so if folks just wanna go on to the interwebs and and type in, like, modern day camomile harvesting, it's what you would expect. It's combines. It's kind of automatic, threshing machines that separate, the the flowers from all of the other debris and stuff that they pull off of those plants.

So, it's all mechanized now. You know, they harvest acres and acres at a time, and it's all mechanized. Whereas, it was again, it was very interesting to see it all done by hand, though, with hand tools. Well, Ken, you know, we we we talked all these different types of chamomile. We we talked about, you know, who's growing it.

But primarily the one that we're growing for tea, I think as we already said, is the German chamomile. Now as we did a little bit of of digging before we started recording, we tried to maybe locate a couple different cultivar names that that might be useful for for folks to try at home. It and there are some out there, but not every seed company carries a named type of chamomile. A lot of times, it's just a generic German chamomile or Roman chamomile, and and that's about where it stops right there. But we did uncover a couple, cultivars out there.

So what, varieties out there? I guess they'd be varieties if they come true from seed. So, what do we got, Ken? What's the recommendations?

Yes. So, so couple that we can actually find descriptions that we'll actually find for sale blazes, can only find two really in our extensive Mhmm. In air quotes search. So Boldegold, would be one. So this is a cultivar variety, whatever it is, from Germany.

So this one is it's an improved over the, I guess, straight species, so to speak. Supposed to have higher essential oil content, which is what gonna give us the the flavors and stuff. Higher yielding, larger flowers, and has a more uniform habit. So it'd probably a little more, probably be good for a ornamental and probably ease of harvest, as well, if it's a little more uniform. There's also Zloti Lan, which is from Poland.

Again, another improved variety, larger, more vigorous, more essential oil in there. But it's some of the scriptures say it's somewhat less sweet, than Nabolda Gold. So if you don't like if you like a little more bitter, chamomile, that may be the one you wanna check out. I also saw a mention of Bona. So Mont University of Montana, the University of Montana or Montana University?

I'm not sure where the university goes in that name. They did some trials on stuff in the in the nineties, and they used a gold to gold in another one called Bona. I couldn't find Bona, anywhere for sale, but that is another cult number that at least one time, existed, and I'm assuming that's probably another improved type as well. Mhmm.

Yeah. So this was started in 1998. So, yeah, things might have changed since they they did this in the late nineties, and it was Montana State University.

Montana State. Okay.

A lot of people might be wondering then, well, where does this Roman chamomile fit if it seems like everyone's just gonna do the German chamomile? Well, the Roman chamomile, it it's a much shorter plant, grows about six inches tall, kinda thicker leaves, and it can be commonly grown, at least over in in Europe, it seems like commonly grown as a ground cover. And being a perennial, it'll come back every year. And so I I do see a a lot of marketing in terms of the the Royal Horticultural Society talking about Roman chamomile as a, adequate ground cover, but does not take light, light, let's see. It does not take well to light foot traffic or, you know, something like so don't step on it that much.

You can step on it a little bit, but then pick a different spot to put your foot next time, I guess. So, yeah, that and that that's where you can still make teas, using that Roman chamomile, but, again, the the German chamomile is gonna be the one that most people are are utilizing. And, you know, again, it's taller, easier to harvest from, and, you know, probably a bit more showy, I would think, because the the the flowers are born much higher, you know, on the the plant itself. So it's more visible in the landscape.

Yeah. And the Roman Kamiyanov mentioned this or not, it's supposed it's more bitter tasting, as well, which is why it's probably not used as commonly, at least for for making tea and stuff.

Well, Kenny, you got me all excited. I I wanna go start some chamomile for myself, and see what I've been missing out on. I guess, what what strategies do I have at my disposal here for for getting started in making my own, tea of camp pot o tea, of chamomile?

I see. I think, yeah, from now on, here on I, we'll just talk about German

chamomile. Mhmm.

Because that's more than likely what people are gonna be doing. So these are annuals. So, typically, we're we're starting this, from seed. You may be able to find transplants, in stores as well, though. They do like, light.

They need light to germinate. So this is a surface. So, just, you know, press them down so you got that good contact. Some people may sprinkle a little vermiculite over there, but you don't want to bury them. Otherwise, you're not going to get, any germination.

They can get root bound. So we don't wanna wait a terribly long time, before putting them out. So don't start them too early and try to hold them, inside because you may have, may have problems transplanting them and then getting them to establish. Once you do that. Now they can take I think they can take some cooler temperatures.

So this isn't like a, you know, wait until, like, tomatoes and stuff. You can eat them in a little bit earlier than that. You can do, like a frost seeding, or something like that and, you know, put them out now and or when we get a little bit cooler. Again, now that's in the fifties and sixties, this week. But it could be a frosty.

Because if you were if you were to have a patch in your yard and you just let some go to see that that's gonna perpetuate in there, so you could just toss them out and, out there as well.

Well, that yeah. So I guess I all I need to do is go find some German chamomile seeds, get them started in my basement, and, transplant them out. And I I do know that there's also, having been to a garden center every so often, there are also chamomile plants for sale there if if you would be interested in in just purchasing the the plants themselves.

Yeah. Yeah. If you got the capability, seeds is is gonna be much cheaper, and you're gonna get a lot more. But that goes for any any plant you start by seed.

I guess that that also depends how much tea do you plan to drink. If you're, like, trying to to supply a a nightly, hot beverage before bedtime, then maybe you need to have, to to dedicate quite a bit of space to this, and maybe seed would be more, a a better option for you. I would say probably just thinking about how I would probably use this, I would think that about three to four plants would be all that I would need in my yard. I do not expect myself to be utilizing chamomile all the time. And, you know, it's if it if it makes you sleepy, sometimes in my house, that's dangerous when you have three, young boys running around.

So, I gotta be careful what I ingest so I can stay alert because you never know when they're gonna be hiding around the corner.

Start giving it to them.

Great idea.

You need three or 400 plants.

I think I might have good growing conditions for this plant. Everything I've read says that they do well in a full sun conditions, but they do tolerate some partial shade, and and and they they do well in part shade even. So, you know, I I definitely have partial shade all over my yard. And so so there's that in terms of taking care of this plant, babying it, you don't really need to baby this plant. It doesn't want to be fertilized.

The only thing you'd probably need to do is water it when you plant it for the cup first couple weeks to make sure that it's nice and established. You can throw some mulch down around it to help insulate that soil, help hold that water in place to, again, facilitate good root establishment of that plant. But once it's got its roots in the ground, it's it's just off and going, and it can really thrive in poor soil conditions. And so, you know, some of the that that nasty subsoil conditions that that might exist around many people's homes, you know, after the home's been built, you know, that topsoil has been gone or, stripped away. And the soil there is not as hospitable.

It's not as what you'd call, I guess, garden soil. These plants, I I'm not gonna say that they're going to enjoy and they're gonna that that's what you want to necessarily give them all the time, but they will do okay in harsh soil conditions.

Yeah. I think I have seen stuff where they once established and they can take drier conditions. I mean, obviously, if you've got a months long drought, you're gonna need to water them, but they're not gonna be quite as high maintenance as as maybe some other ornamental flowers, that were grown. So then once we've you know, they've grown, they're growing. They'll start putting out flowers.

So when when it comes to harvesting, Cameo, we've talked a little bit about this earlier, but from wherever we wanna pick them, when the the pedals are kind of perpendicular to the stem, so they're sticking straight out, it's kind of the the ideal time to pick them. Once those pedals start drooping a little bit, the quality will start declining. It's you can still pick it. It's it's not like it's not gonna be worth picking and stuff. But it and as those petals start to drop off those maybe ones you may wanna think about, just skipping and stuff.

And with these, I get them like a lot of other, flowers. And if we're removing the flowers, deadheading, so to speak, they'll send out new flushes. So you can get multiple flushes, off these plants if you're going out and harvesting and not letting, you know, whole bunch leaving a bunch of flowers, letting them go to seed. And if you want these to reseed, you know, leave some behind or, you know, don't do a late harvest and let those last flowers go to seed, and then they can reseed. So you can just have your you know, even though they're annuals, you can have a perennial patch of of chamomile if you let them reseed, over time.

Well, this sounds like too good to be true almost. If I just get this going my first year, I will have chamomile year after year. So okay, Ken. Let's say you're like you and you don't drink tea. Any other reasons that you might want to have chamomile in your, landscape?

It's a pretty flower. Mhmm. So that is the ornamental quality. And then, it is a it's part of the aster family. So a lot of those flowers, including chamomile, are attractive to to different pollinators.

So bees, flies, butterflies, what have you. So either for the nectar or for the pollen, you'll have various insects going to those to those flowers and and feeding off those floral resources they are providing. So another another benefit.

And for people maybe more like me, if I am chamomile tea curious, after harvesting them and drying them down, for, let's see, about a week or two out of the sun, and I want to then make my tea. From what I have have learned that steeping can either enhance the flavor, like, the the duration that you will steep your tea, or it can be kind of a detriment to the flavor. So if you're someone who prefers more of a bitter type herbal tea, you're gonna wanna steep this for longer. So after about ten minutes, you know, I I think the the recommendations here were it's like a heaping tablespoon per cup of hot water. That's the kind of ratio that you would steep this in and set your timer.

You know, I think maybe a good, all around time for steeping is gonna be anywhere from six to eight minutes. Once you hit ten minutes, you're gonna start eliciting those kind of bitter off flavors of the chamomile flower. And, it might be still palatable to you. But in reading about this, once you hit twenty minutes of steeping, it really is a harsh bitter flavor after that. And so I think you probably just timing this to however your own palate, sees this as something suitable for you.

And you can use the the fresh flowers, as well. So reading some things. I think the the dried flowers from what I've read, and I've never done this before, taste a little bit more bitter regardless of how long you steep it compared to the fresh flowers. But if you're using fresh flowers, you need to use more of them, because when they dried out, that those oils are concentrated more. So maybe maybe an experiment.

Try both and see what you like best. And then for drying, you know, you put them out, you know, in a well ventilated area indoors. You can use a dehydrator on the lowest setting, as well. So there's there's multiple ways you can dry those out. Mhmm.

Yeah. I know a lot of folks will will lay out a a kitchen towel or something and lay, you know, the the flowers that they want to steep maybe the next day, and they'll they'll just lay them out, let them dry down a bit, maybe even toss them in an oven. If you still have the old fashioned, incandescent light in there, you can just turn on the light. Usually, that dries out of any of your leafy herbs or or things like that. Or you can actually buy a dehydrator, and and that probably take a lot more of that guesswork out of this.

And some of us have, like, dehydrator settings. I don't know if those will get low enough, though, because I don't think you want it. Forever, you don't want it too warm because that'll, again, make it a little more bitter than if you let it kind of a gradual dry out process.

Yeah. The other thing also about light, mainly sunlight, and and why we say bring these indoors or put this in a sheltered location where they're not exposed to direct sunlight is that if they are in that direct sunlight, it will actually it will turn the colors of that flower and sort of those more prettier dull yellow white colors to more of a gray. It just it kinda washes out all the coloration in in your herbs, and it's just not as pretty. And so, you know, the the visual appeal of food is is half of the flavor. That's what I that's what I believe.

Yes. And you can take your your dried flowers and put them in a airtight container and store them long term. So you can have it throughout the throughout the winter when we can grow them.

Well, that was a lot of great information about chamomile. Well, the Good Graham podcast is production of University of Illinois extension edited this week by me, Chris Inroth. Hey, Kent. Thanks for hanging out. And, well, I will drink my tea.

You will drink your non grass flavored water, which I guess you just call water. Right? Is that what normal people drink? Water?

I don't call it normal, but and so I may have to try some, try some chamomile tea and see if it does without the the tea tea. Just the just the chamomile. And we'll see.

Yeah. People eat that. They'll just pop a flower in their mouth, and they'll just chew on it. Mhmm.

Yeah. I say there's there's only one way to find out. So we may have to now. Mhmm. And let's do this again next week.

Oh, we shall do this again next week. We are gonna be talking about a particular garden vegetable crop, that I've grown before. I've I've not been so successful at this one because it's an earlier season crop, the garden pea. So we're gonna talk about garden peas next week. And just about getting things started because, oh my gosh, the 60 degree weather is getting me it's getting me all riled up and ready to go.

So gotta gotta calm down, Chris. Just wait and, just just keep on doing what we're doing here inside. All of the way here inside. Oh, well listeners, thank you for doing what you do best. Annette is listening or if you're watching us on YouTube watching.

And as always, keep on growing. I don't know what I said there in the last five minutes.

It's all good. It was good.