Welcome to the Good Growing Podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with University of Illinois Extension, coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today. We're gonna be talking about native grasses and pollinators. Native grasses being wind pollinated, do they need insect pollinators? We'll see what happens and how our native grasses support our insect friends.
Chris Enroth: 00:30And you know I'm not doing this by myself. I am joined as always every single week by horticulture educator, Ken Johnson, in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.
Ken Johnson: 00:38Hello, Chris. Should be should be an interesting one. I think this is one that people don't usually think about as benefiting pollinators.
Chris Enroth: 00:47I will say of the pollinator classes that I give, the images that I show on my slides, I don't know if I've ever had a grass, like, at a pollinator. I've I've never connected those two things. It's always been wildflowers or forbs, you know, purple cone flowers with, all manner of insects on them. And so it it's never been grasses. So, yeah, this would be an interesting show.
Ken Johnson: 01:15Usually, I have one slide of grass. So after after this, I may have to, put a few more slides into my grasses.
Chris Enroth: 01:26I think so. Yeah. We've uncovered a couple of benefits, of our native grasses to our pollinators. And so I guess we should just dive right in. I I I the only benefit that I would teach in these classes would be when it comes to habitat and the nesting provided by our bunch forming grasses.
Chris Enroth: 01:50So what was your that that was my one slide. What was your one slide that you would include, in your presentations?
Ken Johnson: 01:56It maybe the habitat, angle, well, that's nesting overwintering, and then just the, I guess, design appeal Mhmm. To just kind of enhance the design, of a landscape. Or usually the the to be the two angles I will look at.
Chris Enroth: 02:15So I guess that it might be useful to describe, you know, how you know, what we're we're talking about when referring to, like, native grasses, at least here for us in Illinois. You know, we're predominantly a tall grass prairie state historically. That would be big blue stem. That would, also include, yellow yellow Indian grass. It would include switchgrass.
Chris Enroth: 02:40I would say in some of the drier sites, where you didn't have as much soil moisture, you would then be getting into little bluestem, side oats grama, blue grama grass, some of the more short grass species. So the we're talking about warm season, bunch forming grasses. Grasses that sort of form clusters or bunches. They don't necessarily spread with rhizomes or stolons.
Ken Johnson: 03:08And I would say for for today, probably focusing more on those smaller, the little blue stem, side oats grama, prairie drop seed. Because you could put big blue stem in your landscape, but you may regret it.
Chris Enroth: 03:23Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Ken Johnson: 03:25Color enforcement calling on you.
Chris Enroth: 03:28Because big bluestem, true to its name, is, big. And, I I I mean, they do spread as, like, bunches. You know, the that that cluster of grasses only gets so big, but big bluestem, they it just it just takes over. It's just it can be so aggressive. Same thing with with with yellow, indiangrass, same thing with switchgrass.
Chris Enroth: 03:51When people are wanting to put in native grasses into a home landscape, that's usually a smaller scale. I am normally steering them away or kind of recommending away from more of our historic tall tall prairie grasses, and trying to steer them more towards those short grass prairie species like little bluestem. And and that that's just because it's a little bit easier to manage those. I've I've seen several, like, prairie gardens, pollinator gardens, where they put a few things of big bluestem, and after about five to ten years, that's all big bluestem. Because historically, we had large herbivores that would roam across our prairies, and they would their their major part of their diet, like the bison, was grasses.
Chris Enroth: 04:45I think I've read in publications of the past that 90% of a bison's diet, they're targeting the grass species. So with these grasses being such bullies, such such aggressive, that knocks them back, that allows the wildflowers to then take hold, and kind of reassert themselves, and then the group the grasses then kinda push them back out. It's just it's this pendulum that swings in our prairies over the thousands of years that they were here, which I do you have any bison in your yard, Ken? I don't.
Ken Johnson: 05:16As as much as a school as that would be. No. I do not.
Chris Enroth: 05:19No. Those fluffy cows.
Ken Johnson: 05:20Best best I can do as a dog.
Chris Enroth: 05:23Yes. You do have a fluffy dog, though. So
Ken Johnson: 05:29You know, have to act as your own bison, if you want if you want some of that stuff.
Chris Enroth: 05:34That is very true. Yeah. So you're gonna have to con and, actually, I know a lot of folks that will they they are farmers. They have CRP. They have some of that big blue stem because I think way back when NRCS used to say, like, hey.
Chris Enroth: 05:46You are required to have big bluestem or switchgrass or something in here. And so now they have to actively control those grasses, you know, if they're really trying to enhance their habitat projects. And so that the grasses just don't completely take over and there's no wildflowers.
Ken Johnson: 06:05Yes. Enough of the bad. Let's talk about some of that.
Chris Enroth: 06:09Yeah. I'll yeah. Let's talk about these good things. So, I guess let's let's go back to where we began, Ken, habitat and nesting. So describe to me what you would mean by insects utilizing our prairie grasses as, like, nesting habitat?
Ken Johnson: 06:31Yes. There's kinda two examples. I'm sure there's more that I can think of. But bumblebees, I often hear about not well, I mean, not often, but frequently hear about them nesting, at the base of bunch grasses. So bumblebees typically are nesting in the ground.
Ken Johnson: 06:44A lot of times, like, abandoned rodent burrows, some kind of hole or depression in the ground. But they all will also utilize, like, the basis of bunch grasses. They'll build their nest there. And, again, these are these are social bees. So you've got a a queen, that's building this nest, laying the eggs, foraging.
Ken Johnson: 07:03Once the offspring are born, her daughters, they will then take over that and the queen just is laying eggs. But they're annual. So this is a one year thing. It's not like honeybees, which will go on for years and years and years. It's an annual thing.
Ken Johnson: 07:15So then in the fall, they'll send out, new reproductive, individuals, males and and females. They'll mate. The queens will overwinter, and that colony will die off. But often hear about them at the basis of bunch grasses, hear about them in compost piles, stuff like that. So the you're if you're incorporating these these native bunch grasses, there there's a potential that that could be habitat, for bumblebees.
Ken Johnson: 07:39Another one I think people probably don't think about are some of the grass carrying wasps. So if you're providing if you have, like, the wood nesting box or you're putting out straws or reeds for native bee species, those cavity nesting bees, leafcutter bees, mason bees, things like that. If you have some of those holes that are stuffed full of grass, that is a a native wasp several native several different native wasp species, will utilize those. What they're doing is they're going out and catching crickets, grasshoppers, things like that, and they will lay their eggs on. They'll they'll sting them.
Ken Johnson: 08:13They'll paralyze them. That keeps them alive. We'll take those back to those, to their nest. They'll lay their egg on it. That larvae will eat it, and they'll kinda divide their their brood cells with that grass.
Ken Johnson: 08:25If you got a bunch of grass sticking out of some kind of tube or some kind of hole, more than likely that's one of the grass carrying wasps, doing that. I think tree crickets are kind of the one of the main, food sources for those. So those aren't usually getting into levels where you have to be concerned about them, but they are helping to manage those, populations of those insects. And these are solitary, so you're not gonna have to worry about them stinging you unless you grab them or step on them. Like, they're not gonna defend their nest like a a yellow jacket or some other social wasp would.
Chris Enroth: 09:00If there's something I love, it is, uncovering some type of a leaf cutting, grass carrying, some some type of insect that is using vegetation to line their nest with. The the that is so neat. I I did come across I think it was a leafcutter bee that was utilizing, leaves, and she was packing this into a hollow stem. Oh, was it elderberry? I I'm not it it was some some cane forming shrub, in the woods behind my house, and I was just moving things around and the stem just snapped ever so, like, very easily.
Chris Enroth: 09:41And I noticed it was just packed full of leaves and frass. I think it looked like frass. You know, it's powder Mhmm. Looking things. And see if I can dig up a picture to send you, Ken, to throw in here of that that leafcutter bee, and that that hollow stem.
Chris Enroth: 09:57It was it was very neat. I know I have pictures. The question is, can I find these pictures?
Ken Johnson: 10:05Yeah. Yeah. For, like, the grass carrying wasp, I've you read about them and, like, the window tracks or sliding door tracks. You'll find them a lot. I've got a picture of an adult feeding on, mint that I can throw in here.
Ken Johnson: 10:18I don't have any of them actually carrying grass. And, I mean, they'll probably I'd assume they probably use just turf grass too. But, you know, they they've evolved with our native grasses, so you might as well provide that. And the the females will just go clip some grass, carry it back to the nest. So, again, likely, if gutter bees are not taken enough to do any damage, to those plants.
Ken Johnson: 10:40Mhmm.
Chris Enroth: 10:41So speaking of, you know, these wasp bees that utilize the, interior of other plants for for nesting. You have some great articles. I'm thinking of your fall garden cleanup and your spring garden cleanup articles about how insects utilize our standing plant debris for overwintering habitat. Now we talked about how bumblebees can utilize burrowing underneath these bunch forming prairie grasses. You know, they're they're able to find these little little niches into the in that fine root system that, these grasses have.
Chris Enroth: 11:23You know, it's a very, you know, the roots aren't very thick. They're they're finer. They're, but they're more fibrous, creating more of that sod layer right below the surface, I think, more protective. And so but, Ken, in terms of, like, overwintering insects overwintering in in the grasses themselves, Do you see any indication that they are using the above ground vegetation? Are they, like, kind of bedding down near the crown of the the grass plant?
Ken Johnson: 11:55Yeah. It'll probably depend on on the insects and how they're overwintering. So you've got some that may overwinter as eggs, on on those plants potentially or as larvae or if you're pupating and those may be down in the ground or at the base or tied, to that leaf, debris. So we can get into this a little bit bigger. Our grass feeding caterpillars and stuff would be examples of that.
Ken Johnson: 12:19They're overwintering more than likely in those plants they're feeding on. You got things like beetles and ground beetles and stuff will overwinter, in in grasses and plant material. And then they'll go out in the spring and feed on what we would consider pests, insects and slugs and things like that. So, you know, having that habitat that they can overwinter on, like anything else, you have that habitat, they're gonna stick around because they've got they've got what they need. They're not gonna have to go around and and look for their habitat.
Ken Johnson: 12:46They'll stick around in that landscape where they where you're providing them, with what they need. I wouldn't be surprised if you could find other other insects, you know, if you've got could be adult butterflies and some species will overwinter as those. You know, bees and wasps, you know, they have their reproductives overwintering some of the social ones. I've usually seen them more in, like, logs and stuff, but I I assume if you've got a thick enough layer of grass stuff, I wouldn't be surprised, you know, if you could find them there, as well as as long as it's somewhere that's gonna keep them kinda protected and they like it, they'll use it.
Chris Enroth: 13:26Okay. So being March 11 right now, it's really nice out. It's so tempting to go out and maybe cut down your, I have, several bunches of native grasses. You know, you can cut them down. I do sometimes burn my grasses, but it's probably too early, isn't it?
Chris Enroth: 13:46We we we really need to wait until we see a bit more green, you know, trees flushing out with their, with their growth, seeing our lawns green up at least because, you know, a lot of the insects, they are not being fooled necessarily by the warmer temperatures.
Ken Johnson: 14:06Yes. Yeah. And in in an ideal world, we would wait until you know, you think about when you plant tomatoes. Yeah. By then the soils have warmed up.
Ken Johnson: 14:14It's in the fifties. Everything that's gonna come out is probably come out by then. That would be a good time to clean up, but we don't live in a perfect world. And, you know, if it's your front yard, you probably most people would wanna clean that up a little earlier. So if you are cleaning up, you know, you're cutting back grasses, cleaning up other plant material.
Ken Johnson: 14:34Instead of putting that out in the lawn waste or shredding it or doing disposing it however you normally would, If you've got an area, stick that in the backyard in a corner, until it warms up. So anything that is in there, can then emerge, and and then dispose of it. And as far as burning, you'd run into this with prairie burns too. Typically, when you're burning that stuff, you don't burn the entire area because anything that is overwintering in there is gonna get burned up. So typically, you only do part of it every year just so you are, savings what some of that stuff that is overwintering.
Ken Johnson: 15:06So yeah. Just don't go don't do it all at once, again, ideally. But that's sometimes easier said than none.
Chris Enroth: 15:15That's true. Very good points. Yeah. And and I don't always burn every single, grass in my yard. Sometimes I will alternate.
Chris Enroth: 15:24And and and when I do and I do try to delay trimming grasses back as late as possible. You know, I I will even see the green growth coming up from the the the crown of that grass plant. I I will then, take, like, the the shears and just cut them down. I know a lot of folks have said, well, that's that stunts, that green growth at the base of the plant, I've never encountered that. And I have multiple different species of grasses that I've done it to.
Chris Enroth: 15:52They seem to respond just fine. And and by the time we get to mid to late season, they've already they they form their flower. They they've begun to form their seed head, and it's just like just like normal. So I've I've it maybe it takes a little bit longer for them to reach that that higher, the it's it's mature height for the year, but, I have not yet stunted or shortened my grasses by burning them later than normal. And sometimes I do it on purpose because I'm trying to rain them back.
Ken Johnson: 16:24Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll probably do some cleanup this weekend. We've got a or or hell strip or boulevard, whatever you wanna call it, area between the sidewalk and the road. We planted all native plants. But the neighbors across the street have several oak trees, so all those leaves get trapped in there.
Ken Johnson: 16:40So we've got areas where we've probably got leaves six, seven inches deep. So I'm gonna I need to rake some of that out because it's gonna smother, the plant material under there. So I'll rake that out and probably just rake it into the lawn, and let it sit and and probably and weigh back on the cutting back and stuff. But but I will do some we'll do a little bit of cleanup just on that smothering stuff.
Chris Enroth: 17:04Well well, Ken, this show is is turning into a spring cleanup episode here. I guess I guess we need to get back on track. Some of the the other ways that our native grasses can support our our, pollinators, our insects, that that they have coevolved with over the eons, and and the other way is is as food. Now when we were looking into this, you had uncovered a pretty amazing treasure trove of information from University of Minnesota, about some of the ways that our native grasses can contribute to kind of that insect ecosystem. And one of those was as a larval food source, for a lot of our caterpillars.
Chris Enroth: 17:50And I I noted, in this, Minnesota link that you had shared that they they call out a couple specific, native plant species. One of them being, prairie dropseed, another one being, I think, blue grammy grass. These grasses, they they note that, you know, even though they might not be visited as frequently by pollinators, their flowers, these grasses are still supporting pollinator populations by larval food sources. And so, like, with prairie dropsy, there are several skippers that they spend their immature part of their life cycle, their caterpillar's life cycle stage on prairie drop seed. And they're, you know, a lot of these skippers, they're very small caterpillars even.
Chris Enroth: 18:36You may never see them. They feed towards the base or the crown of that grass plant, And then that's how they spend their their caterpillar life. They go. They pupate into an adult, moth or butterfly, and then they will feed on, nectar and pollen resources. So it looks like with, like, prairie drop seed, this is what they've documented.
Chris Enroth: 19:00They know that there are at least six native skipper butterflies that feed on our, prairie drop seed, and this is just kind of based on observation. They say that there's probably more, but this is what they've been able to study and identify. They know that with blue grammographs that there is at least 13 butterfly and moth species that feed on them, including, like, other skippers, Blake's tiger moth, the there there are skippers here I've never heard of, the unca skipper, leonard skipper, Mead's wood nymph, but but they list them all out. And the and I think it's a lot of this larval feeding we we never really think about. I mean, it happens to our oak trees.
Chris Enroth: 19:48It happens to our our forb plants. It also happens to our grasses that that they are also supporting many of our native pollinators. So so yeah. There there you have it. Native grass is larval food
Ken Johnson: 20:05source. I mean, yeah, I'm as guilty as anybody. We we focus on, you know, monarchs, and they want the milk the after milkweed. We talk about oaks because there's hundreds of different species that rely on those. The flowers, yeah, we forget about the grasses and probably because these these butterflies, and moths that are feeding on them are not the big charismatic ones that that we notice or really care about is probably not the right term, but that's what I'm gonna use.
Ken Johnson: 20:29And then we just don't notice. So, and we've talked about this caterpillars of Eastern North America. So it lists a couple of the we talked about the skippers, subfamily Hesperianae, which is the grass skipper. So all the we'll say I'll probably get myself in trouble because there's probably one exception. But all these feed on grasses, as as a larval food source like least skipper, bluegrass, rice cut grass, peck skipper, barnyard grass, rice cut grass, which I'm not sure what rice cut grass is.
Ken Johnson: 21:08But, I mean, this doesn't list all of them. And and the skippers people have probably seen, like, the silver spotted skipper, before. That's a a larger skipper species that you see flying around. It will feed on, let's see, it was false indigo, locust, legumes, and stuff. That's probably one people have seen before.
Ken Johnson: 21:31And then the the nymphs and the the satyrs, Saturnian e. So these are kinda brown. They have eye spots, but a little more they're kinda drab butterflies. So, again, stuff we overlook. But there are numerous species that rely, on these on these native grasses as as a food source.
Ken Johnson: 21:50So, again, just the more diverse the more diversity of plants you have, the more diverse insect population you're gonna have in your landscape.
Chris Enroth: 21:59Yes. Provide larval food sources, provide nectar food sources. And and now I feel better about incorporating more native grasses. I already have a lot. But, now I'm like, well, maybe I I I could go buy some more.
Ken Johnson: 22:18And and sedges too, which aren't grasses, but, so that that book we mentioned, it's gardening with native grasses in cold climates and a Guide to the Butterflies They Support. So this is from, like you mentioned, University of Minnesota, and this is available for free on Apple Books. So I know if you've got a iPhone or iPad, you can get it. We're not quite sure if you have Android, if you're if you can access that or not.
Chris Enroth: 22:44I have Android, but my phone is so old. It's, not loading for me. So, I'll have to get back to you on that one on Android.
Ken Johnson: 22:55Seth. And we can, we're gonna go to link in the show notes onto this. So if you are a non iPhone user or non Apple user, let us know if you can access it or not. Or and if you can't, hopefully, you have a friend that that does have an I an Apple product that you can't access it with.
Chris Enroth: 23:13Yes. Find someone you can borrow their their iPhone or iPad.
Ken Johnson: 23:18And, another one for food that, you know, I've observed, And, admittedly, did not do an exhaustive literature review for this, but didn't really come across anything, in literature is is bees feeding on, the pollen, of native grass. So I've I've seen this in my own landscape. I don't think I've taken any pictures of it, because usually the bees are really small. But and again, we were talking beforehand. You know, we've both seen it on sweet corn, which obviously isn't a native grass, but it is a grass There's monocot that's, you know, it's related.
Ken Johnson: 23:56So I have seen it there, but I have seen it on on our our side oats grandma. And when that's flowering, I have seen small bees and stuff visiting that. So maybe not a major food source for them, but still, it is still a would be a pollen resource for, bees.
Chris Enroth: 24:15Yeah. I I think it's it's probably an area where we need to do more study on that, But I have heard entomologists say that even plants that are wind pollinated, they will frequently find pollinators visiting those those flowers, especially in pollen scarce environments. Like, a lot of our kind of suburb suburban or urban, environments, you know, they might, you might find a lot of insects feeding on shade tree pollen, even though many of our shade trees, they're wind pollinated species. I I sat in on a session. It was led by Morton Arboretum, entomologist where they were talking about pollinators that visit flowers of ash trees.
Chris Enroth: 25:02And it was very interesting, very eye opening because you think of some of those trees, ash, you know, maple, things like that where they are you know, that pollen is moved by the wind. But they said in these pollen depleted environments, very often insects are going to look towards these wind pollinated plants. And when I have encountered, I've I've watched bumblebees collecting pollen from, the tassels of sweet corn, you know, I I recall looking around me, and it's just turf grass and, you know, thousands of acres of field corn. Mhmm. There's not much else around for them.
Chris Enroth: 25:41So it it would make sense that these bumblebees are scavenging pollen where they can wherever they can find it.
Ken Johnson: 25:48Yeah. So if you need another reason, there's another one for you. Mhmm.
Chris Enroth: 25:53So I I also kind of I had the this question about, you know, insects going after pollen on grasses. So I did reach out to Angela Morehouse. Now, Angela, she is a biologist with the Illinois Nature Preserves Commission. So she she's she is an excellent botanist. She is a fantastic, entomologist as well.
Chris Enroth: 26:19Although she's she she'll readily admit she was never trained in entomology. But when you're out in the Prairie botanizing all day long, you become, you know, a you you you absorb that that entomology expertise, just because there's there's insects everywhere in a healthy prairie. So I did reach out to her, and I asked her about pollinators collecting, pollen from native grasses. So I'll just read what she said. She said, it is not common but insects will, on rare occasions, feed or collect, grass pollen.
Chris Enroth: 26:53And then she actually sent a a few images that she gave us permission to use on this show. So let me I'll share this screen right here so Ken can see what I'm seeing. So she, attached a a few photos. This first one is, a lacio glossum sweat bee. I don't know if I said that right, Ken.
Chris Enroth: 27:14Lassieoglossum, and it is collecting pollen from eastern grama grass. So here it is, a a really good close-up of that sweat bee collecting pollen off of this grammographs, or grammographs. Sorry. And, again, another image of that. And then she sent, another picture.
Chris Enroth: 27:42These are sedge sitter flies, and they are on, on a sedge here, and and you can just see they're all just hanging out, pulling, pulling off of these flowers. And I guess it's just true to their name. They're sitting on that sedge hanging out there. And so she's she's always out there taking pictures. She knows that there's bee photographers that have documented this, but she's not aware of very many, like, scientific publications that have have documented, like, pollinator visits to native grass flowers.
Chris Enroth: 28:26So it's really pretty pictures. Encourage everyone this year, get out there. Sit in a, like, a prairie grassland area, and take a close look at those flowers all around you. I bet you'll find a lot of insects out there.
Ken Johnson: 28:42Sounds like if anybody's looking for a master's or PhD project, there you go.
Chris Enroth: 28:48Yeah. Just gotta find that funding, and then you'll you'll be off for the races. Alright. Well, Ken, you know, we we we kinda covered this already, but maybe it bears, maybe hashing over it again. You know, when we talked about our native grasses to use, what exactly are are we referring to?
Chris Enroth: 29:12You know, we can we said folks maybe steer away from those tall grass prairie species like big bluestem, really trying to look more towards those short grass prairie species, which are not as aggressive. And, you know, again, the the the resources for Minnesota, just the ones that I shared, you know, it definitely showed that the the gamma grasses, the the shorter ones, the side oats, grama grass, and then our prairie dropseed, our little bluestem, they are all excellent larval food sources. And, you know, I I would say the prairie dropseed and the little bluestem, and I would even say, some of that that, that blue gramma grass, I would say is going to be very available in local nurseries. If not as a straight species, you can probably definitely find them as a cultivar. I know terra as a prairie drop seed cultivar is is popular.
Chris Enroth: 30:12Terra is a bit smaller, a bit more compact that could fit better into a smaller landscape. And this is probably opening a can of worms with nativars. Well so I I can attest that Tara is a wild selection. It was selected from the prairie. You know, there was no extensive breeding that went into this.
Chris Enroth: 30:34It was just someone noticed a shorter, more diminutive prairie drop seed. There's another one called carousel that is a little blue stem that is also a wild selection. Again, no specific breeding went into this. It was actually selected down near, Rushville, Illinois, out of a a nursery out of there. So and it's now kind of more it's it's sold world worldwide.
Chris Enroth: 31:02So it's a carousel, little blue stem, terra, prairie, job seed. You know, you could get your nativars. You could get your straight species. That, dear listeners, viewers, is up to you.
Ken Johnson: 31:15Something is better than nothing. We can
Chris Enroth: 31:18There you go. I like that. Yes.
Ken Johnson: 31:21You know? And for the, the book we mentioned, what's the title now? Let me look. Yearning with native grasses and cool climates. So one kind of cool thing that they do in this, is they list kind of the complete life cycle.
Ken Johnson: 31:37They've got they call it complete life cycle tables. They have a grass plus a flower. We'll we'll help you with kind of this this lepidoptera or butterfly or moth. Just taking the the larval food source, which would be the grass, then a flowering plant that they're commonly found on either in the literature or in field guides and stuff. So as just as an example, something like let's find one that people would actually wanna grow.
Ken Johnson: 32:04Side oats, grandma, and penstemon species, which would be hilltop little skipper. Now I don't know if that's I don't know if that's one we have in Illinois, but they they have it in Minnesota. So they've got twenty, thirty some of these different combinations. So a little little blue stem and, purple cone flower. It'd be Dakota skipper, Argo skipper, Poashike skipperling, oat skipper, auto, auto, however you say that.
Ken Johnson: 32:36So it's these different combinations that that would potentially work and stuff. So
Chris Enroth: 32:44I love that. That's I I remember being out in the Prairie out in, Kansas in the Flint Hills Of Kansas, having a biologist talk about how the native grasses and the forbs, how they they they grow in and amongst each other, how they support each other, you know, from a structural standpoint. You know, the grasses keep the wildflowers propped up. You know, the herbivores come through where they eat the grasses. It's it is a whole community.
Chris Enroth: 33:12Now, Ken, you're talking about these pairings of grasses and forbs and wildflowers. Oh, this it gets deeper and deeper the more you learn. This is wild.
Ken Johnson: 33:23Yeah. Well, and like you mentioned with the the support, I think that's one thing we overlook, a lot in when we're doing our our prairie plantings is we want the the flower. We want the forbes. We're not getting the grass of what you're offering at structural support. I think, Erin Garrett and her one of her grasses at a glance blog kinda wrote about this where, you know, like like you said, those grasses are supporting these wildflowers.
Ken Johnson: 33:47They're not flopping over. So which I think is a common complaint a lot of people have is they flop, because they're they're typically grown much more densely than we would in a residential landscape, and they've got these support nurse plants, whatever you wanna call them, holding them up. And you've got that competition too, so that kinda keeps things in check, getting keeps them from getting too too big as well because you do have that competition between plants.
Chris Enroth: 34:17And and so this could then play into how, you know, in a residential setting, you could design a garden bed to support insects and pollinators by having your, let's say, prairie drop seed, as more of an edging type plant. You could then do a mass planting of, you know, what what what have you, penstemon. You heck. You could even do maybe even a dwarf Joe Pye weed. Those grasses would help support, those taller flowering plants, from that that would allow them to be more upright, more visible maybe from from the sidewalk or the road, give you good curve appeal.
Chris Enroth: 35:03And then having an edging of grasses, you know, in in, like, a line, that also indicates that you did this on purpose. It is a intention. I think that's another valuable thing when we're trying to incorporate more native plants into our landscapes. Now I was just talking to someone the other day, you know, what, you know, what does this mean by native plants?
Ken Johnson: 35:28I'm
Chris Enroth: 35:28like, well, they're they're really wild plants. They haven't necessarily been cultivated for, you know, generations and generations in a nursery to try to be the perfect little plant that stays in its spot, that that is the the same height no matter what, the same width no matter what. These are wild plants. Their genetics vary from plant to plant. So your little bluestem might be a little bit taller on one side than it is over here.
Chris Enroth: 35:57I mean, there's soil conditions and sunlight, things like that that play a factor, but also just the genetics. They're not clones of each other. They're wild. They go where they want. And, sometimes a native planting can look a bit unruly.
Chris Enroth: 36:11So if we give this a bit more of a a design, eye of intentionality where we're edging plants, we're we're structuring them from, like, short up to tall. That, I think, will allow these to be a bit more accepted by a lot more, you know, groups such as cities, HOAs, you know, your your grumpy neighbor, you know, you name it. Just it it it can probably be more acceptable if we we approach this, you know, by by trying to marry our human aesthetics with those needs of the native plants and then how we can contribute, you know, to kind of a larger ecological, framework towards our yards.
Ken Johnson: 37:01And even leaving a a one more with of turf that's mowed around there makes it look intentional too. So having some mowed turf around it. For whatever reason, you know, people associate that with that Like it.
Chris Enroth: 37:19Yeah. Yes. And if we go back to fire, sometimes these things do catch on fire whether, on purpose or accident. And having a a mode strip around them is act is a decent firebreak strategy too. So, I know we don't necessarily have to worry as much about wildfires in Illinois, but it does happen.
Chris Enroth: 37:42There's actually a a CRP controlled burn that occurred, in Macomb just the other day that got out of hand and and crept onto a neighboring parcels woodland. So, you know, things happen. I I actually have my my parents' property. It caught on fire when the neighbor kid who was, sneaking a cigarette, tossed his cigarette butt into the leaves in the ditch, and then it caught our cow pasture on fire. So, I mean, these things happen.
Chris Enroth: 38:13So having knowing that you're going to be creating these native plant, gardens that are going to be have a lot of debris that will need to be managed, and it's flammable. So, just be mindful of that. Having edging, having structures, rock, benches, signage, all of that stuff, I think, is is helpful in the long term management, maintenance, and acceptance of these gardens.
Ken Johnson: 38:41Have nothing to add. Put that perfectly.
Chris Enroth: 38:44Case closed.
Ken Johnson: 38:47We're done. Alright.
Chris Enroth: 38:49Well, alright. Let me hop off this, soapbox for a second. I got way up there. Well, that was a lot of great information about how our native grasses can help support our native insects, including our pollinators, even if we don't necessarily think of native grasses as pollinator food. They are and they can be.
Chris Enroth: 39:13Well, the Good Growing Podcast is a production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by Ken Johnson. Ken, thank you so much for both editing and hanging out with me today, chatting about the benefits of native grasses to our native insect friends.
Ken Johnson: 39:30Yes. Thank you. And, yeah, like I said earlier, go out and study those grasses. See what's out there. You'll be surprised.
Chris Enroth: 39:37Take pictures.
Ken Johnson: 39:39Yeah. And let's do this again next week.
Chris Enroth: 39:43Oh, we shall do this again next week. We have got some soil test reports to report back to you. So we've done some soil testing on some of the places where we garden, and we're gonna go over those results with everyone next week. Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best, and that is listening. Or if you're watching us on YouTube watching, And as always, keep on growing.
Chris Enroth: 40:19Alright. Well, that was a lot of great information about how our native glasses glasses. Glasses. My my native glasses. Let me start over.
Chris Enroth: 40:29We just have man, we haven't done we haven't acknowledged the fact that we we got past 200 episodes and completely just just didn't even realize it.