Ep. 212 Peonies: Beauty, history, and backyard blooms | #GoodGrowing

Chris Enroth: 00:05

Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today. Peonies? Peonies? We're gonna be talking about this favorite spring blooming plant, which has its own variation of names like tomato tomahto, potato potato.

Chris Enroth: 00:29

But you know, I'm not doing this by myself. I am joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Ken Johnson: 00:36

Hello, Chris. I think it's peony.

Chris Enroth: 00:39

Peony. Why I

Ken Johnson: 00:40

That's the way I've always said it anyway.

Chris Enroth: 00:42

That's how I've I've done it as well. The peony. The peony. Your folks are gonna hear all different ways to pronounce this plant today. So, yeah, feel free to put your own phonetical twist on this plant in the comments below.

Chris Enroth: 01:02

Oh, well, Ken, I I do have to say sort of related to peonies that it has been very dry, and now it is very wet. It has rained a lot, and all of the peonies are just completely flopped over in my yard. Like, what the heck just happened? We got a downpour last night. How about you?

Chris Enroth: 01:25

Did you get some good rain?

Ken Johnson: 01:27

Yeah. Plus so we got about an inch, and I haven't checked I didn't check the peonies in our yard, but driving the kids to school, there's a lot of I won't say flattened, but a lot of peonies where the flowers are much closer to the ground than they were the day before.

Chris Enroth: 01:44

And, usually, they rebound somewhat. But sometimes, you know, the those flowers, they're pretty big. They kind of just almost as naturally will droop towards the ground. So I guess we'll talk about all that today.

Ken Johnson: 02:00

Yes. I think especially the I will get into flower forms like the doubles. I think those hold a lot of water too, and that just down they go.

Chris Enroth: 02:09

Yes. Yes. Well, there's a lot of history when it comes to the peony, and I think it it's gonna be mentioned throughout today's show, you know, these different different ways that this plant has impacted our our our history. But, you know, looking at some of the different dates and, you know, how long have humans been cultivating this plant, it's at least three thousand years that we have been cultivating the garden peony. And when we talk about peonies, for the most part there's different species out there but for the most part, we are talking about the Peonia lactiflora.

Chris Enroth: 02:49

It's also known as the Chinese peony, the the garden peony, the gar the common peony. So there's essentially, this is what we're all growing in our yards for the most part. There's gonna be def definitely variations here, but the most common one out there is Paeonia lactiflora. And that is the one that, you know, they said, at least in Asian culture, they can trace that back at least 3,000 years in in in historical documentation. So it's it's been around for a while, and it's been in people's yards for quite a while too.

Chris Enroth: 03:23

And it it it it it kinda moved its way from from Asia. There's also European species, as well, but a lot of German immigrants seem to bring this particular plant over to the North Americas. And at least in Western Illinois, where we're located, there's a lot of German heritage folks here. And it seems like everyone has a peony in their yard that at some point in time. So I have my my own peony in my yard.

Chris Enroth: 03:53

I didn't plant it. It's just it was there. So do you have plenty of peonies in your yard, Ken?

Ken Johnson: 03:59

Yes. Our neighbor has a line, I guess, on the property line. I'm not sure who they actually belong to. Their ours or theirs are split. And I actually have one or two that I dug from my grandparents' house Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 04:10

When we we sold their house. So those, I don't know how old those are. I didn't remember them. I think they've been around as long as I've been alive. So

Chris Enroth: 04:19

Mhmm. And, like, I there's just so much diversity. There's, like, from from color to flower shape, even leaf shape changes up. You know, as we mentioned, we do have the the common peony, which is a non native, but we do have two native species of peony in North America, but really nothing East Of The Rocky Mountains. The two native species are more western species that you might find growing in every anywhere from, like, California up to Oregon, another species up in Washington, Idaho, you know, maybe Montana, places like that.

Chris Enroth: 05:01

But for the most part, we do not have any native peony species, at least regionally here in the Midwest. It's it's all cultivated species from from Asia, Europe, you know, other part other side of the planet.

Ken Johnson: 05:15

Yeah. I think there's well, there's something like 30 some species depending on on what taxonomy you read. It's somewhere between twenty and fifty some species. I think 30 ish is usually what's agreed upon. So Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 05:28

There's there's a lot of different types, and you can get straight species peonies. I think it's a little more of a specialized market, a little more hardcore people growing those. Like you said, yeah, it's usually those black flora or hybrids, for herbaceous peonies that we're going be growing. Mhmm. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 05:46

So there's also, the tree peonies, which aren't really trees, they're more shrubs. They have their perennial woody stems. So with those, they don't, you know, flopping isn't as big of an issue. There's a of times they'll have much larger flowers, wider range of flower colors, can get into yellows and stuff, with tree peonies. I think I've never grown them because these are much more expensive, than the than the abrasive types.

Ken Johnson: 06:13

And then there's the intersectional or Ito peonies, which are across between herbaceous and tree peonies. So they they have the foliage of a tree peony, which is it's got lobes and stuff in it. It's not just your your oval type that we have for for herbaceous. So a little more interesting looking foliage, in my opinion. So the intersectional has though the foliage of our our tree peonies, but it's not woody.

Ken Johnson: 06:37

It's gonna die back to the ground. And and again, it's got a little more flower color available in that. And I think that's those bloom a little bit later than the herbaceous. I think from where I'd said tree peonies are blooming than than the herbaceous types and then the intersectionals after that. And even with the in the herbaceous, you've got different bloom times within there for that.

Ken Johnson: 06:58

Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 06:59

You know, I've I've never been able to get my head wrapped around tree peonies or even hydrangeas that are trained as trees. I'm just like, woah. Slow down. I can't keep up. I got to stick with my regular old herbaceous peony or my regular old shrub hydrangea.

Chris Enroth: 07:15

I'm like, it's, ah, let's not turn these things into trees. So yeah, the options just over full they overload my brain a little bit. But the options are definitely out there. I mean, this is such a popular plant. I recognize I didn't really realize how common this plant was, or peony, when it comes to, like, cut flower arrangement.

Chris Enroth: 07:38

There was a lot of the literature that that I had found. It was just, you know, this is how you grow peonies for cut flowers, you know. And they don't worry about, you know, plants drooping down or staking plants or anything like that because they're cutting off all the flowers. And so the I was just surprised. And now that I go and I think about the floral arrangements, like, oh, yeah.

Chris Enroth: 08:02

There's peonies in there. And and then the production is worldwide. It is global. You know, the biggest issue with peony is that it's it's you can't get this to bloom all year long. So you have to go to different parts of the planet throughout the year to then grow, cultivate these, harvest them, and then ship them to, you know, planet wide to to fulfill that that demand for peony blooms in in bouquets.

Chris Enroth: 08:30

And and I think, you know, the primary thing is, one, they're beautiful, and also, two, they they smell wonderful. And so, like, it's it's a big demand for cut flowers. And so North Carolina state, they have they they have a lot more information on this. They have one of the biggest peony farms in in the country is gonna be in North Carolina. And so they their their extension or their university has has more information online if people are interested in looking that up.

Chris Enroth: 08:58

And they did a survey, and they found that peony is the second most commonly grown cut flower in The US. Now this is commonly grown. So, like, if you're a cut flower grower, you probably have a couple peonies somewhere on the farm that you'll harvest sometime throughout the year. So it's not economic importance. It's just, you know, you can find it on a lot of cut flower farms.

Chris Enroth: 09:23

But and if you wanna know, you know, I said second for peony, what's the what's the most popular zinnia? The most commonly grown cut flower is zinnia.

Ken Johnson: 09:32

Yeah, so common as in everybody grows them type thing.

Chris Enroth: 09:36

Everybody grows them doesn't necessarily mean they make the most money. Like they don't have the biggest economic impact, but you will find them at almost every cut flower farm.

Ken Johnson: 09:46

Yeah. I think that's I don't know. Peony is like, well, you know, picking your favorite flowers like picking your favorite kid. It just kinda depends on the day. Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 09:54

But like peonies, know, when they're in bloom, that's probably one of my favorite flowers. There's the problem is they don't bloom very long. So you got a short window Yes. To enjoy them.

Chris Enroth: 10:04

Yes. And that's the big dish issue with cut flowers is they they last, what, four or five days maybe before they really so. Yeah. Yeah. They start to fade, and then, you know, this just kind of becomes very lackluster pretty quickly as the the petals and everything just sort of begin to fall off and droop off there.

Chris Enroth: 10:27

So but the the thing the benefit to peonies and why they can grow them around the world and ship them is that if you get them before the bloom opens, they store really well. Like, they can store for weeks at a time in a refrigerated setting. You know, if you you if you cut them, you know, at the right stage of their flower development, it's when you then initiate that flower to then open. You you know, you've only got a very short window in a in a floral arrangement for that peony to to do its thing. And usually, it's a a main centerpiece because the flowers can be the, you saucer shaped sized plants.

Ken Johnson: 11:09

Mhmm. Because I we we teased it. Maybe we should talk about cut flowers.

Chris Enroth: 11:14

I guess we should. We keep talking about it. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 11:16

So so if you're if you've got peonies in your landscape and you wanna enjoy them for more than, you know, a couple weeks. So when those those flower buds start or developing, once those sepals, the outer green wrapping on leaves, once or on the flower buds, once that starts opening up and you can start seeing the color of the the petals beneath. So in my case, we've got white, flower peonies in our yard. So once I start start seeing that white, you kinda softly squeeze those flower buds in the shed, like, I guess, the consistency or the feel of, like, a marshmallow. I call them marshmallow stage.

Ken Johnson: 11:52

That's is that's when you wanna cut those. You put them in chilled water. I I don't do this. I just let them grow on the plant, but put them in chilled water for an hour or two and then you can put them in the refrigerator, and they can last three, four plus weeks, in that refrigerator setting, in that marshmallow stage, put them out, take them out, warm them up, and they'll open up and bloom for you. You may lose a day or so for the when the flowers open on the lifespan.

Ken Johnson: 12:19

So instead of five, six, seven days, may lose lose a day off that, but you're getting those weeks later than you normally would off off that particular cultivar that you'd be harvesting from.

Chris Enroth: 12:31

You know, I this is the time of year that you would be going out, inspecting those flower buds, you know, squeezing them. Do they feel like a marshmallow or not? If they do, you'd you'd cut them and you'd bring them inside, throw them in a vase, throw them in the fridge, however you would want to display them or whenever, if you wanna delay it like Ken had described. And, yeah, it's just it's that season right now. And I I I remember the Illinois Veterans Home in Quincy.

Chris Enroth: 13:00

They have a memorial garden down there that our master gardeners work at, and it it it's arranged very symmetrically. So there's, like, this main axis as you walk into the garden. And then on either side, there's these kind of these secondary axes then to go either to your left or to your right. And between these two pathways on either side is just this row of different types of peonies. I'll see if I can find a picture to to throw in here that It it's enchanting.

Chris Enroth: 13:36

You walk through there, smells amazing. The the colors, the flowers are just beautiful. So I'm pretty sure I have a picture I can send you, Ken. I think I used it on the cover of one of our events that we did.

Ken Johnson: 13:48

Good deal. Any I guess so and talking of blooming, you mentioned this earlier, we've got with our herbaceous, so we're I think today, we're focusing on herbaceous. Mhmm. Ito and tree peonies are a show for a different day. Have somebody actually has grown those.

Ken Johnson: 14:05

Talk about those. Yes. But with our herbaceous types, you know, we've got early bloomers, mid season, and late season. So if you're looking at a catalog, a times they're going to be categorized by bloom season. So despite only maybe blooming for a week or two, for the cultivar, if you if you get different cultivars and stuff, you can extend that bloom season or the season where you have peony blooms in your landscape if you mix and match those blooming periods.

Ken Johnson: 14:33

With that in, you know, say any garden catalog that's selling peonies is gonna should have that information. Mhmm. Mean, I know there's there's companies or nurseries that that specialize only in peonies, and they will and they've got catalogs. You know, some of the the prices may wanna make you cry when you look at them, especially for, like, the newer introductions and stuff. But yeah.

Ken Johnson: 14:59

And then I think when you think of the, you know, how long these plants can survive, you know, the amount of money you spend may seem like a lot, but it's not uncommon. I you always read about it. It's not uncommon to hear plants living for a hundred years. Mhmm. So it's it's a long term investment when you're when you're buying those really expensive ones.

Chris Enroth: 15:20

Yes. If you're into collecting different types of plants, this is definitely a rabbit hole to fall into right here. I was on the American Peony Society website too just looking at pictures of different types that are registered with them. There's some wild looking ones out there. Again, I don't know how you might find them.

Chris Enroth: 15:42

Again, you'd have to go to those specialty nurseries or join the American Peony Society. I think they have their annual show. It's coming up. Coming up, Was it in Wisconsin I saw? Or there's some event going on in Wisconsin, PNE related.

Chris Enroth: 15:59

I don't know if it's their annual national

Ken Johnson: 16:01

meeting. Yes. June, Beaver Dam, Wisconsin for 2025.

Chris Enroth: 16:09

We'll head up to Wisconsin because I if you have permission from some of the people showcasing these flowers, a lot of times you can collect the pollen from these and but we'll get into that here in a little bit when we talk about breeding. But but yeah. So, you know, you can investigate that more if you really wanna dive into this wild peony collecting mad person kind of thing.

Ken Johnson: 16:37

Yeah. We're looking at the the American Peony Society website there. They have a peony registry, and they've got 7,686 results for for cultivars that come back. So there's a lot.

Chris Enroth: 16:51

And and we will get into towards the end of the show, can you make your own cultivars of peonies? And, yes, you can. Just like daylilies or iris, anything like that, you can you can breed these yourself.

Ken Johnson: 17:03

Should we get into the flower forms?

Chris Enroth: 17:05

Oh, yes. The ones that I have are are they're very old fashioned. I they're not double flowered. But yes, Ken, tell me about the different flower forms because all I'm growing is the single flower form, which is very still very large, beautiful. But, yeah, what you got?

Ken Johnson: 17:24

Yeah. So the the American Peony Society. So this is coming from their website, and we can put a link in the show notes if you wanna read this for yourself. So they have, what is it, six different forms of flower forms that they I don't recognize is the right term, but they those are the the standard or or six forms. So they've got single, Japanese, anemone, bomb, semi double, and full double.

Ken Johnson: 17:50

So but the singles, these are more like your your wild types. You've got five petal five or more petals. You have pollen bearing stamens, functional carpals. So they have up to 15 petals that can still be classified as singles, provided this kind of a saucer, more of an open type, flowers. Japanese, they have stamenoids.

Ken Johnson: 18:11

These are basically stamens that have been transformed. So they're still, like, kinda look like singles, they're a little more, the stamens are little more pedal like. And then anemone, is similar to the to the Japanese, but those stamens are are larger. The stamenoids are larger, look a little more petal like. And then bomb, the stamens have become petals, on there, and they're the same color, usually the same color, as the the the true petals as well.

Ken Johnson: 18:42

And then semi double, they still have, promised stamens, in the middle, but they've got more of those petals on the outside. That's a little more full, a little more, I guess, cup shaped flower, than than saucer shaped. And then full double, you know, it's it's basically nothing but petals in there. The the stamens are all converted into petals and and all of that. So if you go to the the American Peony Society website, they've got pictures of all of these, which are much better than the the crude descriptions I just gave.

Chris Enroth: 19:15

Well, I we were at a graduation party a few days ago, and the house as we walked in, they had a semi double peony, which so that is the one that still has the the, prominent stamens, which I remember they were yet this kind of very bright yellow, stamen appearance right in the middle, and then the petals were this very dark maroon red. It was absolutely gorgeous. Maybe one of my favorite combinations I've seen for a while. Maybe think about more about these different flower shapes. I think I like the semi double the best just because you still maintain that center color kind of variation that might be a you know, it it could be a complementary of some of the petals.

Chris Enroth: 20:12

But I just think it helps it stand out more. Now the full doubles, I can understand why people like those. I mean, they're wild looking. It's just a big ball of flower petals, really. So, yeah, I the semi double really stood out, though, to me the other night.

Chris Enroth: 20:28

So if I would be venturing into the peony world, I'd probably start there and maybe go into some of those, like, the Japanese flower types or anemone flower types. How about you, Ken? Do you have a a favorite?

Ken Johnson: 20:44

So the one we have I got from my grandparents, it's it's either a bomb or a full double.

Chris Enroth: 20:48

Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 20:50

I think it's probably full double because it's still got you know, the statement sort of no pistols and stuff are still there if you peel back the pedals a little bit. Yeah. I think I'm with you. Like, if, yeah, if I was picking one, I think I would look go more towards that. That semi double type.

Ken Johnson: 21:09

I I think it it looks because some of those stamens have been formed into petals, but you still have those there, they like the the contrast, it just looks like a this is a bigger, bulkier looking flower than, like, the single. It's a little more, I guess, meat to it, I guess, for lack of a better term. But, like, usually, when I'm looking at beans up, I'm usually more looking for the fragrance. Mhmm. Like, if I'm only gonna have this thing for a week or two, it better smell pretty good.

Chris Enroth: 21:37

Yes. I I do a lot of stopping to smell the flowers, and especially this time of year, our roses have started to bloom. And, we didn't plant these roses either. They just they were there by the previous owner. So and they're all kinda old fashioned.

Chris Enroth: 21:52

They smell pretty good. And then, of course, the peonies, I'm stopping, like, every time I walk by, take a whiff of that because I'm like, ugh. It's only gonna last for so long.

Ken Johnson: 22:02

Yeah. The the ones I got I got from my grandparents, it's they are incredibly fragrant. I have no idea what the the cultivar is. It's just the white. It's got little pink streaks here and there, but it's at times, it's almost overwhelming, the fragrance they give off.

Chris Enroth: 22:17

Mhmm. So, Ken, probably the main question I get about peonies related to and this is related to blooms, though I don't know if people realize that it's quite related to to blooming, is they will call and they'll say, my my plants, my peonies are covered in ants. What do I need to spray to get the ants off of the the peonies? So, you know, what what is going on here? Because I see ants on mine all the time, and there's never any damage.

Chris Enroth: 22:49

There's never any problem here. Are the ants hurting my peonies?

Ken Johnson: 22:54

Yeah. And I think the alternate to that question is do the ants are ants required to help the flowers open up? I think that's the other the other side of that coin, that you hear a lot. So the ants are they're helping the peonies, but they're not doing anything with the flowers opening up. They're not damaging them anyway.

Ken Johnson: 23:11

So the the peonies and a lot of other plants have extra floral nectaries. So these are parts somewhere on the plant that produce have these glands that are gonna produce nectar. In the case of peonies, they've got them on on the sepals and stuff in the flower buds. Those are releasing nectar. That's gonna draw the ants in.

Ken Johnson: 23:27

Ants are gonna feed on that nectar, and ants are kind of territorial. They're gonna defend that food source. So if you have any kind of pests coming in there potentially, or any other kind of insect, they're gonna chase them away, to protect their food source. They're in a way, they're protecting those flower buds by feeding by the the peonies are protecting those flower buds by providing those ants, with the food source. If don't have ants on them, flowers are still gonna open up, just fine.

Ken Johnson: 23:51

And I think a lot of times when when people are cutting them, they've got ants on their flowers, they're concerned. If you're doing it in the marshmallow stage, just swish them around with some water. Same thing with the flowers. They're opened up, take the cut flower, dunk it in some water, swish it around a little bit. Not so violently that the petals are coming off, but just gently swish them around, ants will come out, and then you can have your cut flowers.

Ken Johnson: 24:14

And so usually, there's not gonna be enough ants on there that even if you did bring a few ants in, it's it's not the end of the world.

Chris Enroth: 24:21

Yeah. They they probably won't even survive in your house to to figure out a way out of your house. So Yes.

Ken Johnson: 24:27

They'll have no idea about Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 24:30

I did read one of the issues with those extra full nectaries, you know, and also that that nectar sort of being spread or or or on that that bud as it's beginning to open. If you do not have enough rainfall, if you have, like, a dry spring, which we have had in in years past, the nectar can sometimes make the petals or the sepals stick to the petals. And so the you might not get a complete opening of that flower bed. That's more of an issue for a lot of the cut flower growers that are growing them in, like, a high tunnel. You know, they're under some type of in some type of structure, or they're not getting rainfall over top of the plant washing off that that excess nectar, sticky nectar that might be holding those sepals against those petals.

Chris Enroth: 25:24

So that's that was the one issue that I saw that if you just don't have enough rainfall or, you know, might sometimes be a good idea, spray the top of those flowers sometimes with a a mist of water to wash some of that nectar off of there.

Ken Johnson: 25:39

Yes. But

Chris Enroth: 25:41

The yes. There's a but. Yes. Big but here because there's some foliar disease issues when it comes to peonies and staying excessively wet. So, yes, the but.

Ken Johnson: 25:51

Yeah. So with peonies, I think there's probably three diseases, we most commonly get. Botrytis blight, that's the one usually, we're seeing this in the in the spring even more of a cool wet conditions that it likes. It's you know, if you've got your your flower buds, they're developing all of a sudden, they turn kinda black and they or brown and they don't open up. You're starting to get leaf spots on the leaves.

Ken Johnson: 26:16

That's more than likely the tragus. I know I saw in mine, we've got a bunch of several buds that I think succumbed to it. I don't know how because it's been pretty dry. Mhmm. And then we've got peony measles, just another fungal disease, you get the leaf spots.

Ken Johnson: 26:33

And the botrytis blight and the peony measles can look pretty similar to one another, but you kinda get these reddish spots on the leaves and the leaf blotch or the measles, like, on the stems and stuff like that. Again, turn for kind of brownish over time. And then we've got powdery mildew. So this is again warm humid conditions that are like some of getting these white spots on leaves. And I think powdery mildew is one we I think we're seeing a little bit more commonly or a little more frequently

Chris Enroth: 27:02

Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 27:02

Becoming a little more common, over the last several years. And that could be I I think if you've got these nice humid conditions don't have a lot of airflow through there, that's really good, conditions for powdery mildew. We don't have a lot of rain, that helps powdery mildew as well. If we get lot of rainfall, that washes that stuff off. It's it's one of the few diseases that doesn't necessarily like a lot of moisture on the leaves.

Ken Johnson: 27:25

So, you know, if we're getting getting drier, you've got these really you got older plants that have a really thick canopy and stuff and have a lot of airflow through there. You maybe could have in pretty good conditions for, powdery mildew. Fortunately, with these these diseases, though, if if you've got healthy, well established plants, they're probably not gonna they're gonna look ugly, but it's not really gonna affect the the overall health of the plant too tremendously. I mean, with botrytis, you're gonna lose some flowers, which is the reason we're growing them. But the the, like, the long term health, if you've got a healthy, well established plant, it's it's not too big of a concern that we're not necessarily getting really worked up, over for some of these diseases.

Ken Johnson: 28:06

And you could be pruning out. And if you've got a couple of leaves that are really badly infected, prune those out, dispose of them. Make sure when you're doing this, it's not wet when you're handling the plants so you're not spreading those pathogens. You can use fungicides. Again, if you have, like, the Trias or something, you're doing that early in the season, because the the fungicides aren't once those those plant tissues are infected, the fungicide is not gonna kill off that.

Ken Johnson: 28:31

That's still gonna be infected. You're bay basically trying to prevent the spread. So once it's there, you're preventing that trying to prevent that from spreading instead of kinda curing those infected parts.

Chris Enroth: 28:44

Mine get powdery mildew at the end of every year, it seems like. Just towards the end of summer, they get powdery mildew. I do nothing about it. And they come back every year nice and healthy.

Ken Johnson: 28:58

Yeah. Anything like garden, cleaning up the the the leaves and stuff at the end of the year, could help reduce that inoculum Mhmm. As well. And I don't do a very good job of that, but I still get I still get flowers. They may look a little ragged, especially towards the end of the season, but they're still coming back.

Chris Enroth: 29:18

That's right. They're tough plants. That's why that's why they're in everybody's yard from grandparents or inherited in some form or fashion that you you've you've gotten them in that way.

Ken Johnson: 29:31

At least in the Northern US.

Chris Enroth: 29:33

Yes.

Ken Johnson: 29:34

Can't can't grow them down south. So I think a lot of times, you know, a little tangent here. Know, a lot of times we get zone envy. You know, like, oh, they can grow this cool tropical stuff or warm warmer stuff that requires warmer climate down south, but can't grow peonies, can't grow lilacs, spring blooming bulbs. You gotta buy those new every year because you don't have enough chilling requirement for them.

Ken Johnson: 29:57

So I think, you know, sometimes in the North, we we get jealous of some of the stuff they can grow down south, but I think it goes both ways a little bit too. Yes.

Chris Enroth: 30:07

Yes. This is not a Southern species. This is a, you know, a good Midwestern and Northern US plant. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 30:17

They were the zone seven, eight. It's kind of the cutoff where you don't get enough cold temperatures Yes. In the winter for it to to bloom properly. Plant may grow, but you're not gonna get much, if anything, for blooms.

Chris Enroth: 30:32

Yeah. Mhmm. Well, I guess if you have taken this plant, like, from a grandparent's house or, you know, if you have have a peony and it's not where you want it. I've heard, and I Ken and I you and I were talking like, oh, people say you can't move these things. I have successfully moved peonies.

Chris Enroth: 30:56

You know, what what methods would be recommended for taking a peony from one spot in the yard and moving it to a different or taking it from one yard and moving it to a totally different yard?

Ken Johnson: 31:07

Yeah. So I think this you know, they don't necessarily like their roots getting disturbed a lot, so you wanna try to when you're digging them, get as much of that root ball. Mhmm. You know, I dug the ones for my grandparents. I mean, I had a massive root ball.

Ken Johnson: 31:21

And I actually I don't recommend doing this, but that survived out of the soil in that giant root ball in a basically a garbage hand for for months before I got it in the ground. And it was a little rough in the beginning, but it it survived. I'm not saying you should do this, but I think they're a little a little hardier than we give them credit for Mhmm. A lot of times. But, yeah, try not to disturb the root system.

Ken Johnson: 31:45

Get as big of a root ball as you possibly can. The it was written, you know, those roots are kinda stiff. And sometimes, you know, if you get that soil off and let them sit for a little bit, they become a little more pliable. So you're less prone to breaking them, if you if you can do that. I mean, I think the big thing is, you know, doing doing this in the fall is gonna be the best time and getting as much of that root ball and trying to disturb that as little as possible if you're if you're gonna be moving the entire plant.

Ken Johnson: 32:15

Mhmm. If you're gonna be dividing it, you know, then you're you're you're cutting it up. You're trying to get, what was it, four or five, as your shoots coming off the sections. So you're you're gonna be cutting it up. And so there's gonna be a little more, It gets damaged under the plant.

Ken Johnson: 32:30

So that's it may take a little bit of time for that to recover. It may may not bloom or your fewer blooms out those first year or two, but then as it gets recovers and gets established, you'll be back to the way it should be, so to speak. Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 32:44

You're right. They they are tough plants. We we bought our house that we are moved into right now. We bought it in we moved in in October. So if there were any peonies around, they got hit by the frost that had already occurred.

Chris Enroth: 32:59

They were gone, or or I just didn't even notice them. And that's because they were growing in the lawn. Like, there were several spots just you know, next spring, I saw this peony leaves start coming up. I'm like, well, these are just growing in the lawn. So I think the lawn care company that was had been mowing the that lawn for years before we had owned that house, I think they were just mowing them.

Chris Enroth: 33:25

And I just saw them growing up in the spring, and I said, well, they are in the middle of the lawn. We're gonna try to start to establish a few, you know, beds here, sort of shape or form more of a a space as opposed to having flowers growing up in the middle of of the lawn. You know, shrubs in the middle of the lawn. I don't want that. And so I dug them up in the spring.

Chris Enroth: 33:49

We divided them. I think I got, like, five plants kind of there was there a few clusters of peonies that grow in the lawn, and I sort of divided them and broke them up into five separate different plants. I think a few of them I think maybe two of them didn't establish, but the other three did establish. And even after I dug them up and divided them, more peony foliage kept coming up in the same spot in the lawn. And so I dig those up.

Chris Enroth: 34:18

And so from all of that, I have several in my yard. And also, you know, I I try to do it the best way. Try to keep put as keep as much soil intact around the roots as I could. Every time I mow, I I hit the divots that I've created. And I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a rough bump right here.

Chris Enroth: 34:39

I tried to fill it in with with soil, but I I dug a big hole and when I dug out those roots.

Ken Johnson: 34:47

And I think when when you think about it, when the peonies are buying, most of those are being divided. You know, we've got the these nurseries that are growing these peony plants, and that's how they're getting propagated. They're digging these plants, and dividing them every few years. Forever, it's easier to divide the younger plants as they get bigger. You know, sometimes that that center starts dying out, like a lot of other plants, you know, it becomes more on the periphery.

Ken Johnson: 35:13

So, you know, the younger plants, that's usually what they're dividing up and then building up their stock. And then once they get enough, then then they can sell them. So it's Mhmm. Yeah. It's in the in the trade and the commercial level, they're constantly getting dug and divided and and moving around and stuff.

Chris Enroth: 35:31

Well, in in in reading more about peonies, I saw there's a lot of different ways that you can propagate them. There's people that will use leaf cuttings, stem cuttings, you know, and and they'll root those in a propagation media, and they'll they'll grow those out. And there's a lot of ways to do this, and you can even grow them from seeds. So you can breed your own peonies. And it it is kind of an an involved process.

Chris Enroth: 35:59

I don't think it's any more complicated necessarily than any than, you know, doing this with a daylily. But it it definitely takes a long time. So if you would say cross pollen with with one male, you know, the the bit pollen from one flower, put that on a female flower part of a different flower, cross those, try to breed different characteristics. It could take you you know, it could be, like, four to five years before you see your first bloom necessarily, and it would take maybe five to seven years before you actually see that plant come into a more mature form, you know, lots of flowers. What will the leaves really look like?

Chris Enroth: 36:42

You know? What's the habit of this plant? Do the leaves fall down, or do they stay upright? Are they strong stems? And so peony breeding is an exercise in patience.

Chris Enroth: 36:56

So the the best way to do this, though, is if you are interested in in in in peony breeding, is probably, you know, look up there's a lot of guides online on how to do this. The American Peony Society has has a really good guide on on how to to breed these. And but but generally speaking, you would take go from one flower, and you're selecting flowers that you like or the habit or leaves that you like. And then you you go to another female plant, and you're you're just finding characteristics that you like. A lot of plant breeding starts out as just a guessing.

Chris Enroth: 37:33

And you're just you don't really have necessarily a big goal in mind, but you're just like, I like this. I like that. Let's see if I can get something that resembles both of these characteristics in one plant. So you take the the male flower anthers or the the pollen from those, And you would then remove all of the petals and all of the male flower parts of that you're going to be pollinating. So the the female flower parts, those will remain, and and you remove everything off of there.

Chris Enroth: 38:03

And then you would then, with your finger, try to brush the anthers onto that female, the the ovary, the stigma there. And even if it doesn't seem like the it would stick, the pollen's pretty sticky, and it will adhere itself to there. Even if maybe the female flower is not quite ready to receive it, the pollen will stick. And in a few days, everything should line up for both the pollen and the female flower parts. So and then once you do that, you have to cover that flower with some type of some type of envelope, you know, mesh bag, anything to prevent pollen from reaching that flower that you don't want to pollinate that flower.

Chris Enroth: 38:52

The other thing too, so let's say you go to somebody's house, you like their peony, and you have to then transport that pollen somewhere else, it would be recommended that you would store those anthers in like a paper envelope, something that breathes. You could do it in a plastic baggie, but you have to make sure that that pollen can then dry to then be received by the female flower part. So I guess one step that I did forget is a lot of times breeders will take that pollen, they'll put it on a piece of tinfoil, and then they will shine like a, you know, a incandescent or a incandescent light on it that kind of dries it out over the course of a day. And that dries it out, but not using excess heat, and then that pollen is then ready to then go on to that female flower part. So there's and then you just wait, and seeds will develop by the end of the growing season.

Chris Enroth: 39:48

You'll harvest those, and you can plant those right away as soon as you get those seeds, and you can begin to germinate them. But they will grow a root, but they will not grow leaves because they're waiting to go through two types of stratification. Again, that warm stratification that gets that root to grow, then it needs to go through winter that will then trigger that vegetative growth to then ensue. So you're gonna be waiting at least a year before you see your first leaf pop up. And then once you see once you see that you have leaves in that next year, you can then pot those up and then they can, you know, you can grow them out and and have several varieties that's you know, whichever you'd want.

Ken Johnson: 40:32

And then you do if you are doing your own breeding, you'll probably end up tossing not necessarily tossing, but more often than not, the the what you're gonna get isn't gonna be anything spectacular. I think it's usually kinda few and far between where you'd have something that would be worthwhile trying to to propagate out and and get more of, at least at a commercial level. If your personal level doesn't really matter. But

Chris Enroth: 40:57

Then I wanted to share something. So one of our master gardeners, Sue Marshall, she had put together this historic story about a nursery in Macomb called Peony Dale. And this is by, again, German immigrants. They had first settled in McDonough County about, like oh, let's see. I can actually find the dates here.

Chris Enroth: 41:25

Sue did a lot of research on this. They arrived around, let's see, 1840, '18 '80. The name of this family was the Wettengals, and so Charles Wettengaul immigrated here from Germany. He settled in near Colchester in 1850 and opened a shoe store. They purchased 80 acres of former military track land, and eventually, they owned a whole section.

Chris Enroth: 41:53

So a 60 acres, they eventually purchased near Colchester, which is by Macomb in Western Illinois. They had six children. One of these children, his name was Charles, and he was the one who established Peony Dale in 1898. He was essentially as a child, he was just in a curious naturalist. He collected prairie plants.

Chris Enroth: 42:21

He would go to the woods as he's walking back and forth to school, and he would just collect them and start growing them at his farm. His parents weren't really thrilled with this hobby because it's they said that it it distracted from his other schoolwork and chores, but they they let him do that. And so at that point in time, peonies were imported quite a bit from Holland and France, and blooms were were in high demand. So peonies were, you know, back in the eighteen hundreds were a very popular cut flower. And so nurseries started popping up these, like, little ones all throughout from, like, the East Coast moving into the Midwest.

Chris Enroth: 43:04

So Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, they were pretty big peony growers, you know, back in the late eighteen hundreds, early '19 hundreds. And so when Charlie, this young boy, when he was 14, he ordered his first peony from France. It was 1898. Then he started ordering plants from Holland. He held a flower show in 1910, and he made $75 back then, which was a lot of money, you know, for a young boy.

Chris Enroth: 43:32

And he just continued to buy and cultivate peonies. You know, eventually, would take wagons of cut flowers from the Comb Train Station. He'd he'd go all the way into Chicago to sell them. His inventory was so big. So kinda fast forward to 1935, he had 200,000 plants.

Chris Enroth: 43:49

And by 1955, there was an article that wrote that thousands of people would come visit Peony Dale or Peony Dale during the growing season. So, essentially, I you know, Sue, she tracked down some of his their descendants. I think they're out in Oklahoma now, but, you know, they were really fascinated by the story of, you know, their their grandfather and and things. And so, you know, they're always looking for these stories. And they found out, you know, that they found some old notes of of Charlie's, and he had developed 11 varieties that are registered with the American Peony Society, but there's no pictures of them.

Chris Enroth: 44:36

There's just his notes and his lists. And so, you know, there was sort of this little movement few years ago to try to see if we could find any of them. I don't think they really could. But, yeah, we I have his list right here. And a lot it seems like a lot of peonies are named after people.

Chris Enroth: 44:58

Right? Like, there's the Mhmm. Sarah Bernhardt, the one of the more popular ones, which I, for some reason, kept thinking of Sandra Bernhardt, the comedian. Like, why would they name a peony after Sandra Bernhardt, the comedian? But it's Sarah Bernhardt.

Chris Enroth: 45:13

But, yeah, some of his varieties are Beacon Light, one named after him, Charles, Clara Stockwell, Georgette, Irma, the Lucy Dunn, the white filiform, Lothario, the Margaret Vereheller, Martha v Lane, Martha I a Tieman, missus w d Bennett, missus or w l Miller, the Torridor, Sarah m Wettengall, which I think was his mother's name. So, yeah, those are his his 11 registered with the American Peony Society. And it's just I think small towns in the Midwest have these stories about Mhmm. This particular plant. So, yeah, it's a little trip down, a little historical lane.

Chris Enroth: 46:04

And so they actually have a display in our local museum about Peony Dale.

Ken Johnson: 46:10

So what happened to it?

Chris Enroth: 46:13

It's it's sort of so Sue went to visit this farm, and it just sort of has returned back to the land, so to speak. So, there's definitely just peonies growing wild throughout this 60 acres, but it's also grown up in trees, oaks, and hickories, all these other plants that he collected. So, you know, Sue said it's it's it's beautiful. It's breathtaking. It's stunning, but nobody knows it's there.

Chris Enroth: 46:48

It's hard to get to now. It's just this old farm that, you know, grew thousands and thousands of different types of plants, many of them peonies peonies. And, yeah, it's just it I would love to go visit it right now this time of year.

Ken Johnson: 47:08

Field trip.

Chris Enroth: 47:09

Let's go. We gotta find it first. Sue will give us directions. But yeah. So, yeah, that that yes.

Chris Enroth: 47:20

Little trip down looking looking back. But I think can we other than the ants, there's another big question that we get is, like, you know, why aren't my peonies blooming? And we talked about cold. Is is that the issue? Is they're just not getting cold enough in the winter?

Ken Johnson: 47:39

In the Midwest, probably not. If you're a little further south, that that could be an issue. But there's probably well, there can be multiple reasons as to why. I think some of more common ones is plants are planted too deep. Those really, those eyes should only be, like, an inch or two below the ground.

Ken Johnson: 47:54

They get too deep. Sometimes they are not gonna bloom. There's also they may be lifting the plants up, getting too much shade. The beans we have in our yard, think that's starting to become a little bit of an issue. They're not still producing flowers, not quite as many as when we first got them in there.

Ken Johnson: 48:10

Some of the trees nearby are are getting bigger, casting more of a shadow. So they are full sun plants. So, you know and again, they are long lived. So you may have had one that you planted thirty years ago when that tree was really small and not casting a shadow on it, and now it is. So there may be time to dig that plant and move it.

Ken Johnson: 48:28

Those are probably the two most common reasons. We talked about the botrytis blight. Well, that that gets in there. That can kill the flower buds. You know, if it's a newer plant and the companies are specializing in peonies, you're gonna get ones with plenty of eyes and stuff on it.

Ken Johnson: 48:46

You're getting real cheap ones from the garden center, something like that that come in a bag. Those may be a little bit smaller, so they just need may need time in order to get established to get big enough to really start putting out a lot of flowers and stuff. So small clumps, plants are just getting really big and crowded. They may potentially benefit from from being split up too. And I don't I don't think people usually fertilize them much, but maybe if they're next to a lawn and you're dumping a lot of nitrogen fertilizer on there, your nitrogen is really gonna push that foliage growth.

Ken Johnson: 49:19

A lot of times, they're the expensive flowering. So it's probably not all that common, but I think a potential, especially if you've if you're fertilizing lawn quite a bit, nearby. Just, I guess, some of more common, reasons why we may not be be seeing flowers and stuff, on them.

Chris Enroth: 49:39

And that is why we grow them. And so, you know, we're we're worried about the ants hurting the flowers or whether the ants are part of the flowers opening or why aren't they blooming. And, you so I I sort of forget about my peonies once they're done blooming. They're still there. I leave the foliage up, but I I I sort of forget about them.

Chris Enroth: 50:00

They they vanish into the background. Other plants sort of come in and fill the play the the the the area around there.

Ken Johnson: 50:06

And I guess not that we're talking about cold weather, you if get a late frost, a hard frost or something that could nip the buds on you too. There's not much you can do about that. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 50:18

Well, that was a lot of great information about peonies, a favorite of mine this time of year. I absolutely love this plant. I'm excited to go back home so I can go watch and see what happens this today. You know, after the rain, they'll they'll perk back up hopefully, open up bloom, get a good scent of this kind of that sweet smelling flower that many of us have in our landscapes. And if you don't have it, you know, there we talked about ways you can plant them, divide them, plant seeds if you can have the patience to wait long enough.

Chris Enroth: 50:53

Well, the Good Growing podcast production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by Ken Johnson. And Ken, thanks so much for hanging out talking about a delightful spring blooming perennial.

Ken Johnson: 51:06

Yes. Thank you. I'm gonna go home and go smell some peonies and everything will be okay for the rest of the day.

Chris Enroth: 51:13

That's right. Yes. We'll just keep the storms away so they don't keep blowing over.

Ken Johnson: 51:19

And let's do this again next week.

Chris Enroth: 51:21

Oh, we shall do this again next week. The horticultural hijinks shall continue on the Good Growing podcast. Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best, and that is listening. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, watching. And as always, keep on growing.

Chris Enroth: 51:47

Well, that was a lot of great information about the peonies. Peonies? I think I might have said both over the course of the show. So, yeah, that was a oh, what did I what am I talking about? That was nope.

Chris Enroth: 52:03

Alright. Sorry, we can't. Let me just start over. It's getting dark. I think it's gonna rain again.

Chris Enroth: 52:12

Take two.