Community parks as nature-based solutions with Katie Dudley

Abigail Garofalo: 00:06

Welcome to another episode of the Everyday Environment Podcast, where we explore the environment we see every day. I'm your host, Abigail Garofalo.

Erin Garrett: 00:14

And I'm your cohost, Erin Garrett.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:15

And today, we are here with Katie Dudley, Community and Economic Development Regional Specialist in the, like, central region of Illinois, and she is here to chat with us all about the benefits of parks. Welcome, Katie.

Katie Dudley: 00:29

Hi. Yes. Thanks for having me.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:31

We're excited to have you. This season, we've really been exploring our season theme is nature based solutions. So we've been really exploring, how we can address kind of different challenges on our home landscape and different ways that, you know, nature provides solutions to those. We wanted to take it out a little bit and talk a little bit more about community aspects and nature based solutions when it comes to community challenges and also just, how like, awesome nature can be for communities and the benefits of them, not just to address challenges, but also to just enhance lives. So that's a little preview of what we're talking about.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:07

But first, I wanna hear about you, Katie, and the work that you do because you work for Extension. And as we, our listeners know, people who work for Extension have lots of different jobs, and it could be a lot of different things. So tell us a little bit about the work that you do.

Katie Dudley: 01:19

So like you said there at the beginning, so I'm a a specialist for what we call Region 2. So that's the 39 central west counties. The main thing that I specialize in so my background and everything before coming to Extension is primarily in tourism and outdoor recreation. So like I tell folks, I've seen the good, the bad, the ugly, the weird, every part of tourism. I I've worked in the front lines.

Katie Dudley: 01:47

I was a raft guide and worked in national parks and on the concession side, which is very interesting. I've done marketing. I've done and then right before here, I was actually faculty. And so I taught sustainable tourism planning and development in, at State Long Beach in Long Beach, California. So it was kind of I wanted I love I love what it can do for communities, especially kind of our smaller rural communities, and so I just kept trying to get deeper and deeper into it.

Katie Dudley: 02:17

So that's really my main focus. Like you said, in Extension, we do a million different things, but my main focus is really, to work with communities to help them develop rural tourism. Even I know that sometimes tourism is a bad word. So really just kind of because when we're talking about tourism in rural communities, what we're really talking about is not necessarily Gatlinburg, or going on a cruise. Right?

Katie Dudley: 02:46

We're talking about just inviting enough people in to kinda help us keep the lights on. So so, really, I just like to say visitor economy to do things like that. And then, outdoor recreation. Again, when we're talking rural communities and bringing visitors in, outdoor recreation is something that, especially in Illinois, is is really overlooked. It's got a lot of momentum right now.

Katie Dudley: 03:10

A lot of people are looking into it, but it's kind of an untapped thing. So I focus on that and then workforce development. So kind of your traditional workforce development, but then also how can we use things like rural tourism and outdoor recreation to kind of create more career pathways for those young people who actually want to stay in their town. I don't know about you guys, but I spent my whole life being told I had to leave if I wanted to do anything. And so now, I spent twenty years trying to figure out a way to come back.

Katie Dudley: 03:43

So how can we actually take what's already there in some of these rural communities, and create career pathways for our young people who wanna stick around and and be the next leaders, the next stewards of these communities?

Abigail Garofalo: 03:55

That's awesome. And I feel like the specialists, especially the community economic development ones, have so many different expertise and specialties. Right? So yours, I've I've never gotten to personally work with you. Yours is, like, fascinating, and I'm like, why have we not worked together in the past?

Abigail Garofalo: 04:10

So now I'm like, I've got your number. You know, we have others who work more on, like, hazard mitigation. Right? Right. And others that I have a community economic development person who, like, I'm always like, he's my maps guy or, like, my data guy.

Katie Dudley: 04:23

Yep, Zach yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 04:26

So, yeah, there's a lot of different work that can be done to advance, like, the communities and the local economies within within Illinois. And so really, really cool that that's the aspect you work on. Yeah.

Erin Garrett: 04:38

It's really interesting and interesting just because of our listeners know. I'm in southernmost Illinois, and so, yeah, the tourism conversation is something that is happening in our communities, and it's definitely a balance. Right? Especially in, like, the natural resource world we're, like, yes, visitors, but also not too much. You know?

Erin Garrett: 04:54

It's like, how do you balance that use and and all of that? So it's like an interesting world and conversation, but, yeah, it's fascinating to kind of think about how we could you know, because we have a lot of small rural communities, but we're like hidden gems. There's a lot of cool things and that Right. Could be tourist destinations depending on the type of person that's there. So Yeah.

Erin Garrett: 05:14

You're speaking my language, Katie. I'm here for it.

Katie Dudley: 05:18

Yeah. Exactly. And that's kind of, like, the main thing, like, right now. I have, a program that I actually the first pilot that I did for it, was in Vienna, down closer to your your area, but it's called home first. And so that's kind of the idea behind it is we have a lot of communities that, you know, for various reasons over the past several decades, industry has left, come come in, come out, changed, evolved, things like that.

Katie Dudley: 05:50

And so people will tend to look at at tourism as, okay. Let's bring tourism in it, and and it will kind of save the day and replace all of these industries. And this isn't just Illinois, and it's not just rural communities. Right? It happens everywhere across the country.

Katie Dudley: 06:06

But for some reason, we don't necessarily think of tourism as the same way that we think of some of those other industries. Right? So let's think of agriculture. If you're an ag community, it is embedded into every fabric of that community down to the identity of the people who live there. Right?

Katie Dudley: 06:27

And that's a big concern when we start to get kind of community pushback on tourism. Some of it is that maybe they've experienced negative impacts of tourism. But another part of it is if you're not in deep in tourism, which I don't suggest for many people, because I'll tell you right now, my husband will tell you, I am a horrible person to go on vacation with.

Erin Garrett: 06:52

Oh no.

Katie Dudley: 06:55

Because, I am. I'm not just pointing out fun things. I'm looking at all kinds of different things in there. But that's kind of the average person. Right?

Katie Dudley: 07:03

They only think of tourism in the sense that they've experienced it, and the average person experiences it when they're on vacation. And so if it's crowded, if it's, you know, it's like, I don't want my hometown to look like that. And so when you go into this community, and I'm just gonna stick with ag for this example, but if you go into this community that has, you know, hundreds of years of an ag or identity, and you say, okay. We're having you know, it's changed. It's evolved.

Katie Dudley: 07:37

It's not supporting the town as much as it used to. We're bringing in tourism. I mean, that can really make some people very concerned. And so so a lot of the pushback that we get on that is not we hate tourists, we hate visitors, we hate tourism. A lot of it is you're gonna come in here, and you're gonna erase everything that my family has done for generations. You're gonna erase my identity. You're gonna erase, you know, all of this stuff. And so so a lot of the pushback actually comes from fear. And then we couple that on top of the people who are kind of doing tourism a lot play into that. Right?

Katie Dudley: 08:18

And they focus. And so we've got a a small community over here, and most rural communities have very similar issues. Right? Youth retention, small business, physical and mental well-being. We've got all of these issues over here. And if you're coming over here and just kind of ignoring those issues, people who are listening can't see my hands right now, but trust me, it's a vivid image I'm creating.

Abigail Garofalo: 08:42

Like, holding two sides of a scale. Yeah. Like, what's the balance?

Katie Dudley: 08:46

Right. So it's like and you're saying, okay. Well, we're gonna put all this time, resource, money to bring in visitors, and we're not gonna do anything to help kind of some of these issues over here, then, of course, the people in the community are gonna kind of bristle at that idea. Because they're saying, at that point, it's almost painting the picture that the visitors are more important than the people who have built that town, or who choose to live in that town right now. So yeah.

Katie Dudley: 09:13

So it's a and and like you say, unfortunately, sometimes those natural resources can either get put on the back burner or be seen with dollar sign glasses. Right? Of let's bring in as many people as we can because people equal money, and we need money as a town, and we'll deal with the consequences of this later. And you two know more than me that that that's not a quick we can destroy things real quick. We can't get them back real quick.

Katie Dudley: 09:42

I just went on a big long tangent there.

Erin Garrett: 09:44

I love it.

Katie Dudley: 09:45

Sorry.

Erin Garrett: 09:46

I'm here for it.

Abigail Garofalo: 09:47

I think that was great. I think that really set a stage for, like, why we would bother talking about tourism. I feel like, I used to work for the Morton Arboretum, and when the trolls got built initially a few years ago or many years ago now at this point, there we were also excited. We reached our numbers that we normally only reach during our, like, holiday celebration in the summer, like, in July. It was crazy.

Abigail Garofalo: 10:11

And everybody was so excited, but then we started to see impacts of increased people. So, like, certain parking lots that had never been problems before because of, like, how close the trees were located next to the parking lots were now seeing tree damage because the roots were experiencing compaction from cars parking there.

Katie Dudley: 10:29

Oh, yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 10:30

All of these people visiting didn't have ill intent towards the arboretum and actually had immense respect for it, but, like, because of the the amount. And it started to make frequent visitors of the arboretum, like, very upset.

Katie Dudley: 10:44

Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 10:45

So, like, yeah, there's, like, this push and pull that I feel like you're talking about. And I think it's something that is really important for us to talk about on our season that we're we're addressing right now because it's, like, looking at nature as a solution and also, like, recognizing the nuances of that conversation.

Katie Dudley: 11:03

Right. And this and and, Erin, what you talked about in southernmost and, I mean, the southernmost, I'll say, for parts of the state, you all have, like, great resources down there. I mean, you and that's just it as everybody around here, and and it's how we're all raised in Illinois. Right? We don't think of ourselves as outdoor recreation.

Katie Dudley: 11:25

We don't think of it like that. We use our resources for other reasons. We don't think of a river as a great kayaking and and rafting place. We think of it as a place to cross or a place where commerce can come down. But that's what you know, we don't think of Illinois, and then you get down to your neck of the woods down there, and it's just like I mean, that rivals so many places.

Katie Dudley: 11:47

But then it's like, you know, I'm central Illinois that gets the most bad talk, and, there are places around here that'll take your breath away, guys. You just gotta do it.

Abigail Garofalo: 11:57

I believe you. I'm from Central Illinois.

Katie Dudley: 11:59

There you go. Yeah. You you know, you get because with all the places I drive in, there'll be sometimes it'll still hit me on the drive where it's just especially when it's, like, the green and it's popping and everything. Fall, of course. But in the summer where it just kind of you stop for a second, and you're just like, we've got some great resources here. But what I tell people a lot in the southernmost part is, again, with this home first stuff or with, you know, making sure that the residents are ready, making sure that you're ready, and everything else is the most important part because it's like, I'll get down there and start to talk with folks. And, of course, it's like, how do we get more people here? How do we get more people there? And in places like that, it's it's, be careful what you wish for situation.

Katie Dudley: 12:43

So an example, whenever I was at Clemson there in South Carolina, we actually got pulled over by the Tennessee State Parks. They reached out to some of the faculty there. And so what had happened is there are three parks in their system that the summer before had just exploded. They had no idea why it had exploded, but it had exploded. And so in one of them you know, two of them were a decent sized park, had a pretty good staff, everything. One of them was just one of your parks where it's essentially a dirt path down a mile to a river, and then a little trail there. So maybe one or two people working at a time. And we're getting, I mean, hundreds and hundreds and thousands of people during the summer.

Katie Dudley: 13:31

And these people working there are like, how are we supposed to because, like, I forget one of you brought up the people aspect of it. So it's like, at that point, they can't focus on the resources because they're like, we've got too many people we're figuring out how to deal with here, and then the trash and everything was was bad. So that's what for a whole summer, I went outside of these three parks and, you know, was surveying people, everything. And and like you said, it was the residents who live right next to these places were just so mad because here's my sleepy little park where I just get to go and walk my dog, and now there's all of these people and whatever. What we found out by the end of all of that was this was around 2016.

Katie Dudley: 14:13

And can you guess?

Abigail Garofalo: 14:15

Was it Pokemon Go?

Katie Dudley: 14:17

No. Oh Now that's a that's a whole other issue.

Abigail Garofalo: 14:22

Oh, I really thought it was Pokemon Go. I was like, come on. Be Pokemon Go. Okay. Go ahead. 2016.

Katie Dudley: 14:28

But you probably can guess because what did really take off in 2016?

Abigail Garofalo: 14:34

It wasn't the eclipse.

Katie Dudley: 14:35

Right. Yeah.

Erin Garrett: 14:37

Well, we could go down a whole another rabbit hole on that.

Katie Dudley: 14:40

Exactly, exactly.

Erin Garrett: 14:40

Anyways

Abigail Garofalo: 14:41

It wasn't cicadas. Right?

Katie Dudley: 14:44

Uh-uh.

Abigail Garofalo: 14:44

No.

Katie Dudley: 14:45

It was more of a yeah. Well, it's still I'll say it's still around today. It just had its beginnings where it was really kind of culturally taking off in society.

Abigail Garofalo: 14:55

It was like videos. Right? But, like, yeah, like social media kind of things.

Katie Dudley: 14:59

Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 14:59

It's a social media.

Katie Dudley: 15:01

Instagram.

Abigail Garofalo: 15:02

Instagram, okay. Oh, because it was a beautiful spot for Instagram.

Katie Dudley: 15:05

That all three parks had waterfalls. So everybody had to get out and get their waterfall, gram, out there, and all three parks were an hour drive or less from Nashville. So when we talk about the combination of tourism and outdoor rec, Nashville Nashville, of course, has always been tourism, but it has evolved over the past several years. It has not always been Nash Vegas that it is today. And so Nashville was exploding even more so, and then all of these parks were an hour drive.

Katie Dudley: 15:44

So people were going to Nashville. They were taking their day trip. They were getting their waterfall picture at these parks and going back to Nashville. So that's where I say of the be careful what you what you wish for because that was a trend that that no one there planned for, that no one there tried to make it happen. It did happen.

Katie Dudley: 16:06

So it's what some of these places say that they want is all of these people there. But because it happened without their control, all of those negative impacts came with it. So it was again, the people were the residents were upset because there were too many people. There were people, talking about the eclipse. There were people parking on people's yards.

Katie Dudley: 16:27

There were people, you know, doing all kinds of stuff. They've since, you know, steadied the boat, and they've turned it into more of a I think there's actually, like, a waterfall tour or trail or something now, but it was they started in a deficit in in a hole with that. So that's where it's like, I know that everybody's kinda chomping at the bit to get out there and promote it and get more people there, but it's like, just make sure that you're ready for what that actually means for that area.

Abigail Garofalo: 16:56

Okay. So we just spent a lot of time nerding out about tourism, and we spent a lot of time talking about, like, the kinda be careful what you wish for. But there's a reason people want these things. Right? Like, there's a reason that your role exists. There's a reason we're studying this, all of these things. So, you know, where do, I guess, like, these green spaces, parks, trails, things like that fit into the conversation of nature based solutions and addressing some of some challenges a community can have?

Katie Dudley: 17:24

Yeah. So the main thing and, again, this is kind of how I tend to approach community and economic development. You know, in today's world, essentially, it is it is really hard in becoming fewer and farther between, you know, an act a rural community actually being able to get, like, a big company to come in or a big industry to come in or or something like that. So, again, we we spend a lot of time and resources and and and money on that. So we spend all that time not necessarily knowing if it's gonna pay off.

Katie Dudley: 18:02

Right? And so, again, when we're talking about that scale from before, well, these issues are still here while we're still kind of trying to chase chase these other things. So that's what I I I tend to do is say, okay. Let's look at the resources that you do actually have. Because we the three of us and anybody who's lives in a rural community can spend all day talking about what we don't have.

Katie Dudley: 18:26

But what we have in abundance are natural resources. And so a lot of times what we do is we stop short with, okay. We have these natural resources. Let's say a river. Let's say hunting. Let's say fishing, anything like that. We have this. And so that means it's we treat it as kind of this amenity. So that's something that people will want to come and pay money to be a part of, and then and then there we go. We've got tourism.

Katie Dudley: 18:57

Right? And we kind of and we say that that's a nature based solution. When we really dig into effective nature based solutions with that type of thing, we say, okay. How can we take that river, and how can we actually use it to address some of these other issues that are facing the town? So how can we use that river, yes, To bring in outside people, but how can we also use it to get our community a little bit more active?

Katie Dudley: 19:24

How can we use that? Because we know, you know, it's no longer that we speculate that being outside helps with mental health. Like, the data is hard. We have that data that says, I think it's like a hundred and twenty minutes outside increases mental well-being. And when we know that we have such a prominence of those issues in rural communities, how can we use that river to actually team up maybe even with the hospitals or something like that to where we can get people outside and and walking on those trails.

Katie Dudley: 20:02

We have physical health. We have obesity. We have lots of those things. How can we use what's actually already in the backyard to, again, get people more healthy and active? How can we use that river as a classroom? And, again, not a classroom that just teaches biology. Right? Here's you're gonna about I'm about to reveal how little of a science person I am. That's why I went into the social sciences. But but, you know, we're not just saying let's take these kids out and and say, like, here's this type of fish.

Katie Dudley: 20:38

Here's this, you know, let's do water monitoring and stuff like that. There's always gonna be an importance and a role for that, and there's always gonna be the students that are kind of driven to that role. But what about the students again who aren't necessarily gonna go to college? It's just not the path for them. And those students that wanna stay there right there.

Katie Dudley: 21:00

How can we actually teach them that, you know, that there are jobs with IDNR, with fish and wildlife, with IDOT, with, you know, Army Corps of Engineers that only require a high school degree. And those are great jobs. Right? You have benefits. You have longevity.

Katie Dudley: 21:20

You have all of this. And so you can get those kids that are in maybe the CTE classes or something like that. And when you introduce the natural resources to them to say this could actually be a future, this could be a job path, then that's how we can start kind of using them as that's when they go from an amenity to true nature based solutions to some of the issues that we have. A quote that I don't know I wish I could say that I said it. It would seem really poignant, but I was reading it somewhere, and and and they said, young people don't stay in their hometown because there's a statue there, but they will stay in their hometown because they're connected to the place, because they're connected to the resources that are in their hometown.

Katie Dudley: 22:07

So that's kind of that different approach to to tourism. So when you're trying to court visitors to come in and you're thinking about all the things you're building up, you might get visitors to come and look at that Abraham Lincoln statue, but that might not keep that young person to stay in that town. Right? So how can we actually look at what we have that could address both of those things?

Abigail Garofalo: 22:32

I love that. I'm thinking about, like, just all of the things that that addresses. Right? So I've said this many times, like, I've interviewed, like, a crazy number of of potential Master Naturalists, and they'll always tell you, nine times out of 10, I wanna be a Master Naturalist because and my connection to the natural world is because of this thing I did growing up, because of this connection I had, not because they can name, you know, 40 different oak species or the number of birds that are in Illinois or this thing. It's because of the personal connection they had with them.

Abigail Garofalo: 23:02

And so, like, by I I love your example of a river because I feel like that's, like, such a a thing that so many communities, especially in Illinois, can picture is, like, their water spaces. Yeah. It's like, I fished with my grandpa or dad or whoever growing up. Or this was the thing that us, you know, teenagers did by the water, and we always noticed these things. Right?

Abigail Garofalo: 23:27

And so just those, like, connections pieces that, like, investing in the community and other people are adding a little extra dollars to keep that going. Right? Like, it's for the community, and the tourism is an investment in that community space as well. And so yeah. So cool.

Katie Dudley: 23:47

Yeah. That's and like you say of the kind of the the childhood memories and and things like that, That's what I say to folks. You know? We have some of the best deer hunting, duck hunting, that kind of stuff. And you've got kids that the only time they can wake up in the morning is on the weekend, and they're waking up at the crack of dawn to get out.

Katie Dudley: 24:08

So that shows that passion and that motivation, but they have no idea that that could actually be their career path, that something you actually enjoy that much could be your career path. And then when we start to think about who's working for those agencies like that, who's actually taking care of the land, and when we're putting the the people who are from that area and have that passion and connection to it, then we have such a stronger kind of sense of stewardship. Right? And then trying to pull in that next generation. So, yeah, it's just kinda it's it's one of those regenerative aspects of when we talk about regenerative tourism.

Abigail Garofalo: 24:51

Yeah. When when you think about water too, like, it it makes the quality of that stream so much more important too. Right? Like, we gotta think well, if we can't have people you know, if the fish populations aren't good or we can't have people, you know, even go in that water, we have a lot of questions now, and and we might be more interested in investing in that aspect because it's benefiting our community specifically, and more prone to protect it when maybe another organization comes in and wants to utilize that resource in a way that isn't beneficial to the town, but is highly beneficial maybe monetarily. Right?

Abigail Garofalo: 25:32

Well, the benefits we get from it are way bigger than just the money piece. Right? So interesting.

Erin Garrett: 25:39

So when we're talking about kind of these green spaces, parks, what does it kind of take for one of those spaces to move from just being, like, available and there to being, like, accessible and welcoming? And I don't know if, like, this is gonna fit in the theme, but this is my example. Is sometimes a town will, like, build a bike trail or a walking trail, and it's, like, on top of a levee. And so there's absolutely no trees, and there's no shade. And it's like, who wants to use that? That's my husband's thing. He's gonna be like, ah, she's talking about the thing I always say

Abigail Garofalo: 26:13

Shout out!

Erin Garrett: 26:13

when he he listens to this episode. But, like, I see that all the time is that people will be like, oh, yeah. We built this sidewalk here, or we, like, tried to make this accessible, but, like, it doesn't click. So, like, what are some of those things that communities could do to try to actually make these spaces, like, welcoming and and usable?

Katie Dudley: 26:31

People can really tend to almost make the the word accessible too narrow. Right? Where it's like especially if if you get a grant to do a trail or something, and as part of the grant, it says it has to be accessible. So they make it ADA compliant, and they and then they say, oh, it's accessible. Why isn't anyone using it? And exactly like what you're saying is because no one actually went out there and said, oh, it's because there's no shade. Oh, it's because there's actually no restrooms. Oh, it's because you know? And so that

Abigail Garofalo: 27:05

The parking is super far away, and I have to drag my children to it to actually get to that space.

Katie Dudley: 27:12

Exactly. Yeah. So that's kind of the main thing that there's a lot. I'm gonna try and, not not go way off, but but we'll see. We'll see where I land. Yeah. How we kind of move with that is we've got the user experience itself. So, yes, where is the parking lot? Is it shaded? Is it whatever.

Katie Dudley: 27:36

But some things that we don't tend to talk about are, is this welcoming? Because, again, rural communities, not a lot of people are using it recreationally at this point when we when we get especially kind of the older folks. Right? Because they've just never done it. So now we put this trail and we say, here's something that you haven't really done.

Katie Dudley: 27:58

You haven't just kind of walked on a trail before for fun. But it's there and go use it. And it's like, how does that work with anything? Right? So how welcoming is it if my mom who, you know, is is in her seventies and gets overheated pretty quick and and doesn't walk long distances, and all she's seen is that we've created a five mile trail. In her mind, I can't go to that trail unless I can walk five miles. And right now, I can't walk five miles. Is there a beginner friendly version? Is there any type of signage that says, like, do we actually spell it out? Right?

Katie Dudley: 28:41

If you want if you have a fifteen minute lunch break, here's where you can go and do this. If you have an hour, but you need to be a beginner, here's where you can go. Those signs are important when we think of, you know, safety and and directions and stuff like that. But what they also are is the ability for someone and for a variety of people to be able to walk up to it and see themselves in one of those options and say that that's there. We get into those problems a lot, when we talk about outdoor recreation because a lot of times the people who plan it maybe are the people who are experts in it.

Katie Dudley: 29:25

So we've got people making trails who hike every weekend and who go and hike mountains. We've got people who are, you know, developing rock climbing trails who are extreme rock climbers, and they just assume everybody else wants exactly that. And so what that does is it just kind of keeps those gates locked.

Abigail Garofalo: 29:44

When I was working for Cook County, our Master Naturalist used to deliver guided hikes, and they changed the name of those to be walk and talks for a couple of reasons.

Katie Dudley: 29:55

Perfect.

Abigail Garofalo: 29:56

One, people would attend who were hardcore hikers and be as annoyed as possible that they only went three miles in two hours. And they'd be like, what the heck? Why are we

Katie Dudley: 30:06

It's not even worth it.

Abigail Garofalo: 30:07

This is a naturalist walk, people. We are not we are extendedly talking about the things we see.

Katie Dudley: 30:14

Exactly.

Abigail Garofalo: 30:16

Two, people who weren't big hikers didn't go because they were like, well, I can't hike. I like, I don't see myself as a hiker. I you know? But a walk and talk, I can handle that. Right?

Abigail Garofalo: 30:30

And so that was a way of, like, rebranding it is, like, this was actually the function and what actually made sense to the public and the audience that they wanted to attend. So, yeah, that that kind of, like, cultural shift is important.

Katie Dudley: 30:45

Yeah. Because even yeah. My students, whenever, I I was teaching, it was this idea of hiking. And and for some reason, it's it's you know, culturally, it's kind of taken on like this too where where people I mean, I don't think of people's, like, dating apps and stuff. Everybody loves to tell you that they're outdoorsy and that they hike and that it and it's like as though hiking, like, makes you superior to other people.

Katie Dudley: 31:11

And that's what I would always say is just like, guys, hiking is walking. Like, everybody everybody has the tools to hike.

Abigail Garofalo: 31:18

I'm like a stop to see something cool kind of hiker.

Erin Garrett: 31:22

I'm identifying every plant. We barely move. Okay? We barely move.

Abigail Garofalo: 31:26

We're not moving far people. Like

Katie Dudley: 31:29

Yeah. Exactly like what you said of, like, that word hike just has so much behind it in some of the signage and some of when you're talking about things. You know? If you truly if it truly is more of a stroll, use that word, and then it'll open the door for more people. Another thing that this was actually just brought to my attention really recently, and I hadn't thought about it at all.

Katie Dudley: 31:53

I work I do a lot of work with, a systems therapist. So she goes into communities, and she looks at, you know, where kind of the barriers exist, where things where things break down, where we kind of make assumptions about about access, about things like that. And one of the things is that we tend to make an assumption that every man in his thirties or forties in a rural town knows how to hunt and fish. And once they get to that age and they haven't learned from family or or even when they were younger, they just weren't interested or something, they're not gonna ask their buddies to bring them along on the fishing trip. Right? And be like, can you teach me how? No. They just cut those social like, that's just a part of social life that

Abigail Garofalo: 32:41

they don't person who doesn't know because there's an assumption.

Katie Dudley: 32:45

Exactly. And now yeah. And think of all the socializing that revolves around that from the actual activity to the bar afterward or the shed afterward and think of all those ways that those people are just kind of getting and and, again, we talk about assumptions because we have all kinds of programs for women. We say becoming an outdoor woman. We have, you know, fishing clinics for women, everything else, and we don't do the same for the men.

Katie Dudley: 33:17

So yeah. So it's like when we it's it's just when we think of accessibility, think truly, are we making assumptions about who feels welcome here, who feels comfortable here, who feels like they can just leave their house and be part of this, and who are we sometimes, you know, most of the time unintentionally excluding, by what we're doing.

Abigail Garofalo: 33:40

You mentioned in your blog some ways that we can think more deeply about these spaces, the design of these spaces to ensure that we meet the goals that we're reaching the audiences that we all intend for them to be. And so you mentioned in your blog this Tuesday test, and I loved it. I read about it. So if y'all are, love to accompany the blog, definitely go check that out. If you don't, this is a good checkout. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, why we might wanna evaluate parks using that particular test? And, like, what is it?

Katie Dudley: 34:09

So the Tuesday test, it came out in, like, a lecture one time, and then I just and then it's turned into something bigger. And but I I stand by it. I think it's something that that parks, that tourism, everything should should use. And the question is, will this whatever we're doing right now, will this still be beneficial to the residents who live here on a cold Tuesday in February? So that's where we start saying so if we're if we're looking at a at a tourism spot and we're saying, you know, oh, we gotta bring in a craft brewery because that's what people wanna see or, like, a now, whiskey distilleries are all all the rage and things.

Katie Dudley: 34:54

And so when your town is more of a busch light town and and we've all been in central Illinois in my in February. It's not the prettiest place to be, so the visitors aren't gonna be there. So what is that what is that thing doing for your town at that point? Because the people in the because the business owner gets mad at the people for not coming, but it's like the people are like, well, that was never what we like to do to begin with, and now you want us to keep this open even though you didn't pay attention to what we what what we do. And so that's the same type of thing for a park.

Katie Dudley: 35:29

So if you have great natural resources and you want to turn them into, you know, kind of visitor attractions, and that's the only thing that you're doing for that park is focused on how it can bring in visitors. And those visitors aren't there on a Tuesday in February. What is that doing for the people in that town? So if you have done none of the legwork that makes people feel invited into it, that makes people wanna protect it, that makes people take ownership of it, then nobody's using it at that point. So think about that where it's it's how can it actually how can this thing actually be used and still continue to benefit the community?

Katie Dudley: 36:15

And that's that idea of getting away from dollar signs and more of how can it actually be a nature based solution. So we know if we're using that trail as part of you know, we're we have hospitals and doctors' offices giving nature prescriptions and things. And so if that's part of somebody's routine to help them lose weight or maintain weight or, you know, supplement, mental health actions that they're trying to take, that's still there. They can still use it. It's still providing a purpose.

Katie Dudley: 36:50

It's still creating a positive impact. It's still that part of that nature based solution even if we're not having visitors come in and use it at that point. So that's always just kinda what I tell people to ask because tourism and and outdoor recreation is fun. And everybody likes to sit around a room and throw these real fun ideas at the wall and say, we could do that. We could do that. We could do that. So that's just kind of my way of, like, pulling everybody back into reality and saying, okay. What's that gonna do on a Tuesday in February?

Abigail Garofalo: 37:22

There's a lot. This it's, like, really popular up here to put up workout space parks. Like, they have, like, an, like, a ninja course over here Oh. In the suburbs. And I was there, and I was like, at the kids' space that was, like, a fenced in area was, like, super popular.

Abigail Garofalo: 37:40

The K. Ninja Warrior space, not so much. And I was, like, curious. I was like, first of all, it's, like, super hot. There's no shade.

Abigail Garofalo: 37:47

Like, everything's metal. But also, like, I just didn't notice a lot of, like like, it just didn't feel like a space that, like, I was like, should do I belong here? I don't work out hardcore. Can I go to this space? I don't know. It just didn't feel like something that and I just didn't see a lot. Like and I'm from that community. And I was like, are we using this? Like, is this a big workout community? Did I miss something?

Abigail Garofalo: 38:13

And so, yeah, like, that Tuesday in February. Like, is it for us, or is it for, like, the people who are not always here?

Katie Dudley: 38:20

Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 38:20

Are there any communities in Illinois that come to mind that have done a project like this well, like, that like, the Tuesday test has, like, shown to be successful?

Katie Dudley: 38:30

Yeah. There's a few. Some of the ones that I tend to to point out is Oregon, Illinois. They've done a great thing with their downtown. And so the the reason I like to bring them up too is because they've done, I think, what a lot of towns wanna do, but maybe aren't quite there yet.

Katie Dudley: 38:50

Because what often happens is we'll put a lot of our focus on beautifying Main Street. Right? Bringing in businesses downtown, all of that. And that is that's fantastic. That's great. You bring in visitors. You're gonna want to have something looking good. But then it's also it's so interesting to me because I'll be in some of these communities, and they'll be right next door or in the backyard of a state park or some of or or whatever, you know, some of the best resources. And the two groups of people never talk to each other. They don't realize that they're actually a team, that together, they could really be a lot of great things.

Katie Dudley: 39:28

One of them thinks, I deal with and I've always said this is, you know, working with the parks and stuff. When people are in a park, we call them a visitor, and when they have a beer afterward, we call them a tourist. It's the same person. Right? So so that's just it as it's the, you know, the the downtown folks are saying we deal with the tourists, and the parks are saying, we deal with visitors.

Katie Dudley: 39:50

And it's like, well, it's the same thing. And so that's what Oregon has really done is really embraced it, and they down to their slogan. And and that's really my that was my first introduction with Oregon, and I because I was trying to find I was I was looking for examples of rural tourism for the rural economic development conference. So I was trying to find examples of it. And their slogan is all trails lead to Oregon.

Katie Dudley: 40:15

And that's what I try and tell communities is your slogan tells people what to do when they come to your town. So it may be great, and it may look good on a T shirt or something to put, you know, a beach chair in the sand with a corona and say, like, toes in the sand. But when you're telling when you're saying that, a tourist is saying, okay. That's what I'm gonna do. This place is the party place. I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna drink from sun up till sundown, and I'm not gonna pay attention to the fact that people live here and that it is a Tuesday, and I'm partying till midnight and everything else. And so always be cognizant of what you're telling tourists to do so that all trails lead to Oregon sends that first signal of, hey. We're outdoorsy. And so you're gonna come in, and you're gonna like our downtown. It's gonna be welcoming and clean and everything, but we don't want you to stay here the whole time. We want you to get out, and we want you to go kayaking. We want you to go biking or cycling. We want you to go and do this other stuff and then come have a beer downtown afterward. And so so that I think is really great.

Katie Dudley: 41:22

So they've got kind of this they get it. They get how they all work together. And then there's so many other layers with that. They're they're, like, so many miles from Chicago and from it's a whole they walked me through how they came up with that.

Abigail Garofalo: 41:33

Rockford.

Katie Dudley: 41:34

Yeah, and I was like

Abigail Garofalo: 41:35

Yeah.

Katie Dudley: 41:35

Yeah. And I was like, fantastic. Not to mention, you know, people my age in the Oregon Trail, and then, of course,

Abigail Garofalo: 41:42

I was gonna say, like, Oregon Trail also was giving. I it's so funny you brought up Oregon because I actually was thinking about Oregon as, like, a successful small town. I have, like, I have family in that area. Our Extension colleagues, as well are in that area, and, like, I I just I love going there. And so, yeah, it's got they've got a really a lot going for them in that community, and working that collaboration with their their those state parks there is really Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 42:12

I never thought about how that's kind of unique and also very cool and, like, how they that's Right. Yeah.

Erin Garrett: 42:18

That's interesting because I was thinking of Vienna. They also have they're all along the Tunnel Hill State Trail, which I used to live in Vienna for a few years. And so for me, it was great because I could ride my bike from my house and get on the Tunnel Hill State Trail, which is, like, 45 miles long. I did not ride that whole way. Right?

Erin Garrett: 42:37

But for me, it was like, I could ride there and then, like, bike for a few miles and then come back and go home. And then they, like, call themselves, like, bicycle capital of Illinois, and they'll have, like, different bring different races and things in. Like, there's, like, a 100 mile race where there's been, like, world records that happen, like, on the Tunnel Hill Trail and, like, in Vienna. So, like, they do good work at bringing in tourists, but then, like, there's a whole park there where you can access that trail, and it's, like, just the local park that all the kids will come play at. Like, we brought, you know, our kids and go there, and then that's where they'll have, like, little farmer's market stands.

Erin Garrett: 43:11

They built an amphitheater so they can have more events and, like, put in some nicer bathrooms. And so, like, that combo too of, like, yep. It's great at tourism, but then also is a great asset for the local community too that the community, like, regularly uses. And so, like, that balance, I feel like you're doing, like, really great with that. And, like, how can we do that in more spaces too? Right? Where it is, like, the community asset, but then there's some part of it that can bring other people in too.

Katie Dudley: 43:40

Yeah. And I think what you brought up is is great there because in places like yeah. Down there by Vienna, they've got they've got a group of people that are just really active and really doing a lot of good work in the high school there. Folks at the high school are doing a lot of work in partnerships with the Shawnee Forest and everything. And so and I think that that is fantastic because outdoor recreation is again, it's a community.

Katie Dudley: 44:13

So, again, you you are probably in a community of whatever activity that you're doing. So it's cycling. It's it's boating. It's whatever, but it is that community. And so where a lot of places missed it for so long by not bringing in that community, the actual community of the town that lives there, is you don't wanna go in and go on a bike trail and not see a single soul or to, you know, pass by, you know, some of the locals and just have them give you a dirty look or something like that.

Katie Dudley: 44:47

It doesn't feel like you're entering into a community and doing that. But if you have if you go to that park and you see the community out using it, the town and the people in the town out using it, then you're say then you are more likely to get done with your activity and stick around in that town a little bit more. Because now it's like these people are like me. They're part of this community. They're of this active lifestyle type of thing.

Katie Dudley: 45:15

And it's really hard to get folks in, but it it's it's with the schools and the young people with that. And so when we're starting to introduce this to the young people and putting it in the actual schools so that they don't have to worry about, does anybody in my family know how to teach me how to do this, or how can I afford the equipment that can be very expensive to do any of this stuff? All of it's just kinda given to them, and it becomes embedded into the fabric of the community kind of like those other industries that we talked about. So the same way that we get kids coming out of FFA and 4-H and everything else, especially in places like Vienna and things, we can have kids coming out of outdoor. We can have, at this point, there are college mat or college well, there's college, but there's also high school mountain biking teams at this point.

Katie Dudley: 46:10

So it's even yeah. So it's even the idea of the sports that we offer are doing that. Because the last part I'll I'll I'll wrap it up with this. Because just like you say, like, with, like, the races and things, this is where a lot of communities get in trouble. Because, again, kind of the people who can see the economic value of these races are the ones that will put it on.

Katie Dudley: 46:33

So now if you have a community who aren't part of the cycling community and can't or don't want to or whatever see, they're only gonna see the negatives. And the negatives are, I can't get out of my house all morning because the road's blocked off. The negatives are, I've got people going to the bathroom in my yard and things like that. And it's like, yeah, those are those are things that need to be addressed. But if it's part of what they do and it's part of that and they see themselves as part of that community, then we know that you're gonna you're a lot more likely to let some of those things go.

Katie Dudley: 47:10

And you're gonna say, I think it's great that we brought in 5,000 cyclists instead of, good god, 5,000 cyclists came in again or you know? And and they're just gonna run over, and I'm not gonna it's gonna take me forever at the gas station or something like that and just pointing out all the negatives. We want the individual benefit, but we also know that it can be kind of that community benefit too.

Abigail Garofalo: 47:34

I'm thinking of there's a lot of conversations about the Chicago bears, like, moving to

Katie Dudley: 47:38

Oh yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 47:38

the suburbs. Right? And I'm noticing people who are really excited about it in the northwest suburbs are people who are bears fans. People who do not care about football are like, this is gonna be a nightmare. Right? And so, like, that's kind of, like, more of a sports example of, like, you know, well, I care, but I'm cool to tolerate it.

Abigail Garofalo: 47:56

I also think of, like, the state fair. I grew up in Springfield, Illinois. The people love the state fair in Springfield, and, like, we're all kind of willing to tolerate the, like, traffic that it all brings because it is a little bit of a cultural phenomenon in it. Like, we really enjoy it. And, you know, I have fond memories growing up going to the state fair every year.

Abigail Garofalo: 48:16

And, like and so it's, like, something I'm like, we're like, yeah. Well, like, the traffic sucks for ten days out of the year, but, like yeah. So it was fun. And we got to go, and we got to see a cool concert, and we we got to experience all the different pieces of it and compete even. And so yeah.

Erin Garrett: 48:32

So for our listeners today, Katie, what would you say is one simple way that they might want to see places or green spaces or parks in their own hometowns a little differently than they have before based on kind of what we covered today? Like, what's one thing they might Yeah. Be able to look for?

Katie Dudley: 48:50

I've got I'm gonna do two parts, to that because the first one is, again, changing people's mindsets, a little bit about when we talk about things like outdoor recreation and and how parks and green spaces can fit into that, can fit into visitor economies and things like that. And where it's people don't necessarily think of it as because it's fun. Right? So it's always this the idea of an add on industry or, you know, even whenever I was young and and doing stuff, it was always like, well, when are you gonna get a real job? And I would I would be taking people through a class five rapid, and they would say, so when are you gonna get a real job?

Katie Dudley: 49:30

I was like, well, you know, this takes a little bit of skill itself. You know? This this is a real job. I could just I could just stop guiding right now, and we could just let you take the rest of it and see how it goes. So it's there's a lot of you know, we don't need to get paid because we get paid in sunsets, and it's like, well, you know, landlords don't take rent in sunsets.

Katie Dudley: 49:54

So we all live in the same world you do. So just some numbers out there. So, again, outdoor recreation as an industry has exploded. It has been, I would say, several years at this point that they actually finally quantified it for the first time. And so they gave the latest numbers recently a couple months ago.

Katie Dudley: 50:13

And so in Illinois, again, in Illinois, a state that people try and write off as not an outdoor recreation state, it brought in $26.4 billion in economic impact in 2024, and it supported a 179,000 jobs. So that is not an add on thing. That is, that's not just something fun and out there. That is that's a true that's true economic infrastructure. So when we talk about courting businesses, when we talk about things like that, outdoor recreation is just as big and as important an industry as as many of the other ones.

Katie Dudley: 50:52

Don't count it out, when you're thinking about your strategic plans. So the other thing, though, with, like, the green spaces and the parks and what they can do differently is I would just challenge them to just go and, like, look at it with a different set of eyes. Look at it as infrastructure. So look around just like what we were talking about with the shade and stuff like that. Look at how someone might actually be using this and some things that it could be improved, or look at it in ways that we talked about today.

Katie Dudley: 51:28

Could this actually be used to help with trauma? And are there some organizations in town that that deal with populations like that? And how can we connect them with this with this area? Who's not out here using it right now? Look around you.

Katie Dudley: 51:47

Does every single person in that area look like you? Probably have the same economic background as you? Probably have the same upbringing as you? And if so, what are some ways that you can do to expand who feels comfortable out there? Because the main the main thing that we do know is that proximity doesn't equal access.

Katie Dudley: 52:10

We've got all of these resources, and there are so many people who are still in these towns who just never actually access them, and those are for various reasons. So that's that's what I would, suggest to somebody is just kind of go take twenty minutes, look around with a different set of eyes. Industries like tourism, outdoor recreation, and stuff, we only wanna talk about the good. It's a fun thing, and so everything's great. Everything's always great.

Katie Dudley: 52:39

As long as we make it, it's great. Right? And so the fact of the matter is there's a lot of the same kind of biases and assumptions and everything else that are that's woven into that just like any other aspect of life. Try and see what might be taking place right there to do it. One more thing is when we talk about the the young people and and getting people involved, what I always tell folks is think about every other public health crisis that we've had, smoking, seat belts, all of this stuff.

Katie Dudley: 53:12

Where do we start? We start with the kids in the schools. It's gonna go a lot farther if your kid comes home from school and tells you you shouldn't smoke than if I show up to your door and say, I'm a health and wellness person. I say don't smoke. Right?

Katie Dudley: 53:27

It's gonna be different. So that's the same thing for these towns whenever it's trying to say, oh, how can we develop a park or a trail or something? Before you start looking for those grants, look at what's happening in the schools. Are there classes where it could actually be put into the lesson to where you can go out and do and build some of these trails? Because then you've got the older folks that would never step foot on a trail.

Katie Dudley: 53:56

But if their grandkid made it, they'd be out there every day, and they'd be telling you to get out there and do the same. Right? So that's my suggestion.

Abigail Garofalo: 54:05

Oh, it's awesome. It kinda follows along with a lot of the themes of our season, which is, like, to be curious about the world. Right? We're not just looking at parks and saying, yep. I don't wanna go here.

Abigail Garofalo: 54:15

It's like, why? Or why do the people here, you know, not wanna come here? Why do people why aren't there enough people at this hidden gem? Right. You know?

Abigail Garofalo: 54:23

So asking those questions. Thank you so much, Katie, for taking the time to be with us today. We're gonna transition today to talk about everyday observations where we highlight the mundane and normal of the environment that is actually really interesting. So, Erin, I'm gonna pick on you to go first.

Erin Garrett: 54:41

Okay. I have a plant nerd deep dive, so I'll try to keep it brief. Many years ago, I was up leading a hike for Abigail's Master Naturalist. We were in a prairie, and, we were looking at, like, prairie dock and compass plant, which are in the same genus if you're a plant nerd, and we found these leaves that looked like a hybrid. And I was like, that's not a thing.

Erin Garrett: 55:03

And Abigail was like, it's absolutely a thing. And I was like, what? So, I was like, I'm still not convinced. I don't know. I feel like it's, I don't know.

Erin Garrett: 55:12

And Abigail was like, yes. It can hybridize. So fast forward, today, I was out in Cairo at our food donation garden. We have some pollinator plants growing there, and we noticed earlier this season, we have compass plant, we have prairie dock, and there is a plant that the leaves, like, look like they crossed, and it's, like, half and half a hybrid. And so I've been watching it, and it's in bloom right now.

Erin Garrett: 55:34

So I'm like, great. I wanna collect the seed and then see if I plant the seed, what grows. Like, does it revert to one of them? Does it stay the same? Is it a true hybrid?

Erin Garrett: 55:45

This is just, like, where I am, like, these fun observations that I have, and, like, it all comes full circle. So I did have to, like, put my tail between my legs and go back to Abigail and be like, yes. You were right. It looks like they can hybridize. So

Abigail Garofalo: 56:01

I think we even checked that with, like, Chris or something because, like, some prairie or compass plant can, like, have wider set leaves, like, not be as, like so I was like and then I was like, maybe I'm crazy. And also too, like, this is giving me way too much credit. I feel like I was speaking, like, out of my derriere at that time being like, of course, they can hybridize.

Erin Garrett: 56:22

Hey, and you were right.

Abigail Garofalo: 56:23

And for me to, like, stand up to Erin is, like, about plants is not a good call ever, because Erin just knows a lot more about plants than me. So for me to say that, like and so, yeah, it's it's good to feel right, and also it doesn't feel quite right because I don't know if I knew exactly what I was talking about then. So glad to hear that they can hybridize and that the silphium genus is not as standard as or is, like, you know, siloed as we thought it was.

Erin Garrett: 56:47

We'll see. Because, like, so far, it's all observational, and we've talked to it with a few other people. And, like, there's other silphiums that there's, like, data on it, but I haven't seen it on this. So it could turn into a future experiment. I don't know. We'll see. It's fun.

Abigail Garofalo: 57:01

I love it. I love it. Okay. So I'm not gonna talk about birds because I just tend to talk about birds more. Again, this season has made me a lowercase b birder, so we're not gonna talk about birds today.

Abigail Garofalo: 57:10

We're gonna talk about caterpillars. I saw this caterpillar about a year ago, and I looked it up. And then I saw the same cat not the exact same, but, like, the same species. Again, this year in my front yard, and my my husband came to me and was like, oh my gosh. You have to see this wild bug.

Abigail Garofalo: 57:25

And I was like, I know it's a wild bug if my husband tells me to go see it, but it could not also be that wild. Right? Because he could be, like, just the standard bug that I know is standard, but is also wild. So it gives me a good gut check on what's actually wild. Anyways, it was a caterpillar, and it was coming along, and it was longer.

Abigail Garofalo: 57:41

And it wasn't it was fluffy like a woolly bear, but it wasn't a woolly bear. Like, I was like, this is it's longer, a little bigger. It was, like, bright yellow with, like, black kind of things off of it and some black markings. And I was like, don't touch. Like, don't touch.

Abigail Garofalo: 58:01

And so I looked it up again, and it's an American dagger moth. And so the moth itself is not super, like, in the sense. Like, if most people will look at it and be like, oh, dagger moth. It's called like, oh, moth. Right?

Abigail Garofalo: 58:13

Because it's kind of dark colored. But, apparently, it's called dagger moth because of the markings on the adult wings. But the caterpillar itself, super bright, but don't touch it because it has, like, the hairs can give, like, skin irritation and, like, rashing. Rashing. And so definitely don't touch it, but very cool.

Abigail Garofalo: 58:33

And then I saw it a few days later hiding under my wild ginger, and so now he's like my little buddy. I hope he becomes a wonderful butterfly or caterpillar or moth or whatever. And then I or I hope a bird eats it and has a really yummy snack. Either way, I hope it enjoys its place and ecology in my landscape, and that is my observation.

Erin Garrett: 58:52

They're so cool. Like, bright yellow. It's crazy sometimes the, like, colors that some of these bugs are, and you're like, how are you not eaten all the time? But, like, also, are you like, stay away. Don't eat me. Like, I don't know. It's crazy.

Abigail Garofalo: 59:06

Yeah, so, like It's crazy. You know what? I didn't even bring that up to my kids. It's a great point. I should be like, you know, be just a little cautious of bright colored animals because usually that's like a warning sign to other animals.

Abigail Garofalo: 59:15

Don't eat me. Don't touch me. There you go.

Katie Dudley: 59:17

It it's those conversations that you two just said that I was just like, wow. We experience the world so much differently. Because because I'm with you on the, like, oh, a bright bug. And I was like, and that's where I end. And then you're you two are like, and this is this is why it's this bug.

Katie Dudley: 59:39

And I'm just like, oh, well, I didn't think deep enough. This is how, like, not in not a master naturalist that I am. So my whole career, I've worked parallel to to you folks. I deal with people. I let you guys you know, I try and take the people away, and you guys can deal with the resources. And

Abigail Garofalo: 59:58

Come here and don't pay attention to those weird folks with their noses in the ground.

Katie Dudley: 01:00:03

I know. And I find myself sometimes, I've, like, done it for so long that I'll try and, like, in conversations, in, like, meetings, I find myself in places where I I try and talk your talk, and I'm like, oh, no. I'm I need to say a second sentence, and I've I've expended all of what I know about any of it.

Katie Dudley: 01:00:25

There's a lesson, kids. You don't have to know everything. You have to know the people who know everything and make sure that you flush them out.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:00:33

That's how I operate my life. Like, I'm like, this Exactly. These very specific things. But if you ask me a question about grasses or even moths, I'm going to Erin.

Erin Garrett: 01:00:42

I've got you.

Katie Dudley: 01:00:42

There you go.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:00:43

Yeah. You asked me a question about, like, the water and, like, mussels and things like that, I'm going to I'm going to Amy. Mhmm.

Erin Garrett: 01:00:50

Oh, okay. If you ask me about soil, It's Abigail. I got nothing.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:00:54

Yeah. So and even then, if you're talking about, like, horticultural soil, like buying soil from the ground, absolutely not. I'm calling my local horticulture person. Like,

Katie Dudley: 01:01:05

That was at, like, an extension facilitation training thing, whatever. So I am in in Carrollton, Illinois, and, my family ran the grain elevator here for almost a hundred years. Great grandpa grandpa and dad, everything. My knowledge of agriculture is embarrassing. And so I was at this facilitation meeting, and I I thought I thought this is a safe place. These people will be okay. And I actually asked the question. I said, can somebody just tell me what specifically is horticulture? And, I got some weird looks, guys. Apparently, apparently, I am

Abigail Garofalo: 01:01:44

I'm so sorry. That's so rude. I feel like it's, like, okay. Like, I feel like that's such a ambiguous term. Like

Katie Dudley: 01:01:52

Right.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:01:53

Like, that's

Erin Garrett: 01:01:54

Well natural resources too. They're all ambiguous.

Katie Dudley: 01:01:57

Well that's true.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:01:57

Yeah.

Katie Dudley: 01:01:58

Yeah. But I was just like I was like, I'm gonna say it, and then I said it. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't have said it.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:02:06

Well, I think that's a fair question, and I'm sorry that that was your experience because I think I think people should be validated in not knowing what that means.

Katie Dudley: 01:02:15

Right. Exactly. It just gets tossed out so much.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:02:22

Katie, thank you so much for bringing your perspective on the parks and the ways that we're addressing challenges within our community using these green spaces and and making them, I guess, like, maximizing their benefits to the local communities that are investing in them. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us about all that.

Katie Dudley: 01:02:42

Yeah. Well, thanks for letting me chat about it.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:02:45

Any time. You know us. We love to chitchat. This has been another episode of the Everyday Environment Podcast. Check us out next week where we will share with you our live conversation at the Master Naturalist Conference.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:03:00

This podcast is University of Illinois Extension production, hosted and edited by Abigail Garofalo, Erin Garrett, and Amy Lefringhouse. Marketing and communications are by Emily Steele.

Matt Wiley: 01:03:12

University of Illinois Extension.