Working hand in hand with nature in your garden with Amy Powers

Abigail Garofalo: 00:07

Welcome to another episode of the Everyday Environment Podcast where we explore the environment we see every day. I'm your host, Abigail Garofalo.

Erin Garrett: 00:14

And I'm your cohost, Erin Garrett.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:17

And today, we are here with the lovely Amy Powers, a garden coach and social media influencer in the landscaping and native garden area. She is here to chat with us all about gardening with nature. Welcome, Amy.

Amy Powers: 00:30

Thank you for having me. This is one of my favorite topics.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:34

I love chatting with you. You and I have done a few programs together historically, having great times. You and I vibe really well when we deliver programs together. We do.

Amy Powers: 00:43

We do. We're like the power duo.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:46

Yeah. So I usually lean on you for like the gardening, horticultural aspects because that piece is a little more foreign to me than the ecology pieces. Mhmm. I love working with you because you truly do understand like the ecology and thinking about the plant as a whole. So

Amy Powers: 01:02

Well, learned a lot of that from you. So

Abigail Garofalo: 01:04

Oh, well, thank you.

Amy Powers: 01:05

Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:07

Well, it's great to work with you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Amy Powers: 01:11

During the pandemic, my sister back home in Canada and my brother back home in Canada bought new houses and they were asking me all kinds of gardening and pruning questions, and I'm here in Chicago. And so I started making little videos and my son told me, hey, that hydrangea pruning video you did last month has like 15,000 views on it, and I was like, what? And so I just started to realize how much I love the communication of difficult concepts. My background is in software engineering and I always, even my very first year as a 23 year old, I remember being called into a boardroom meeting with executives and I'm like, what? And they're like, we they know that you're the one who can explain this problem to them.

Amy Powers: 02:00

So I've always been like the I call myself a linear thinker, first this and then this. So because that's how I think, I think it's easy for me to kinda get into the mind of a beginner and really explain things to people who don't have a PhD in ecology and maybe haven't read the 200 page research article that my ADHD brain loves to run down that rabbit hole. So I think that's the part I realized I love, and I really come alive, and I get so excited when I'm explaining things to people and, like, getting them to understand hard things. So, yeah, I decided the following spring, like, you know what, I'll try this this social media thing, and I'll make a goal of doing three videos a week. And, of course, none of them really went anywhere in the beginning, and then it was the day I decided, well, my goal was to make three, and I'm not getting anywhere with these.

Amy Powers: 02:52

And so I'm wearing a gray cotton t shirt with a oil stain on it, and my hair is everywhere in the wind, and I made a video about properly deadheading roses and why and how we do it. And then all of a sudden that video went to like 200,000 views and I picked up like 30,000 followers in a weekend. And I was like, okay, I'm learning, I'm getting better at making videos, and I also learned nobody cares how you look. Just be yourself. Just stop worrying about the makeup and the hair.

Amy Powers: 03:24

Garden the way you garden, and just make videos that people need to hear being yourself. So it just you know, then I did lilac pruning, and it went to 5,000,000 people. And next thing you know, I turned into a garden coach. I had people in the comments just ask me if I would come to their house. Like, hey, I'm in the Chicago Suburbs. Can you come over? And I already had an IT hourly consulting business, so I just did an hourly garden business, and you pay me for my time like I do in IT, and next thing you know, I've got hundreds of people on a waiting list. So this is where I am. This is my new career, and it is perfectly the intersections of all things Amy. It's the chemistry degree, and the gardening, and the creativity, and the education, and the ecology part. Right? What can I do on my little patch of the earth to be a steward the best way that I can? So it literally encompasses everything that has always been Amy, and so here I get to play in nature every day and bring people along with me, and I get to meet new people every week, and yeah, it's the greatest job.

Abigail Garofalo: 04:27

That's awesome. Like, you have really great communication strategies. They're so resonant. We try and, like, think about in everyday environment, like, what are ways that people are digesting information that we can get them? Because there's so many, like, there's so much misinformation out there when it comes to different aspects of our environment.

Abigail Garofalo: 04:45

People are like, oh, have you tried this tip that I've never done myself, but I recommend. Right? Like

Amy Powers: 04:50

Right.

Abigail Garofalo: 04:51

And so having those, like, trusted sources, trusted people, and we think about that a lot too, is like what are good ways that we can communicate that makes sense that also inspire people to think about their living landscape? And that's what we really appreciate about the way you communicate is you're like, don't just, you know, here's how you deadhead roses, you're like, here's why. Yeah. You know, we need to be removing them in this way or thinking about or the impact that this has on the plant biology went by doing that, which is really, really important and something we all try to do too.

Amy Powers: 05:23

And I think what's where I learned that is from my high school math and science teachers. Right? Like, the reason why I love chemistry is because I had such a great teacher, and she told us on the first day, here's the textbook I'm required to give you, take this and put it under your bed and bring it back on the last day of school. She was all about critical thinking, and we all know in on a math test, right, we all got taught, we had our problem sets, here's how you do the algebra, but we know there's gonna be some challenge tests, challenge questions on the exam that are not going to be laid out the way you saw them. And so the more I can understand the theory behind why I do my algebra like this, I can then apply those rules when there's a situation that comes up where not all roses have five leaflets. Some have seven, some only have three. So like it's not always just do it like this, it's if I can explain why I'm going far enough down the stem where there's enough tissue that the new growth can support leaves and flowers, that's really why. So then if somebody gets out there on one of their roses and there's not a five leaflet, they know in the background why we go to five. It's not always five. So you can apply the principles.

Amy Powers: 06:40

Right? So I think I had such a great education with so many great science teachers that taught me how to make decisions on the fly when they don't line up exactly the way the formula told you in math. Right? Mhmm. So, yeah, I think it's really important for people when they're out there having to make decisions on the spot. Not every situation lines up with the video Amy just showed me, but at least she gave me the background. Now I can apply that to make a better decision.

Erin Garrett: 07:04

Yeah. That's really interesting to hear, and I know Abigail a couple years ago, we were trying to get inspiration for our social media videos that we do for Everyday Environment, and she was like, check out Amy Powers' videos. They're amazing. And so I've been following you ever since. And every time a video comes up, I'm like, yes. I'm gonna learn something new. I love Amy. So I'm really excited to have you on the podcast today. Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 07:26

You have fans in southern Illinois.

Amy Powers: 07:28

I also learned things. Mhmm. I became better at gardening from being an influencer because people think I'm crazy, but I try to respond to all the comments. And as I've gotten bigger, that's harder to do. But I love hearing the questions because I know then that I didn't answer that in the video, and I could've done a better job on that section. And so now I know I recorded how to prune native wisteria yesterday, and as I'm going through it, I know what they're gonna say. Oh my gosh, that's invasive. So now I know what things, because I have paid attention to my audience, and that helps me become a better person for delivering information, because I'm anticipating what I know they're gonna ask me.

Erin Garrett: 08:10

Amy, I feel like we could talk all day. Alright. Well, let's start getting into kind of our topic today that we're gonna be chatting about. So this season's all about nature based solutions, and we love kind of thinking about gardening in our landscapes kind of, you know, within the broader environment. Right? We we talk a lot about kind of more traditional type of gardening that kind of separates out my garden from the rest of the environment, But if we kind of look at more of a truly nature inspired garden, what does that kind of look like compared to maybe what we're used to seeing in the garden?

Amy Powers: 08:45

I would hope a natural more natural garden would have more diversity in it. Mhmm. Okay? So when I go to a lot of new homeowners, and they show me their Pinterest inspiration pictures, right, what is it generally? It's hedges of boxwood, and it's a whole hedge of hydrangeas, and then there's a bunch of non native trees, not which I have much of an issue with as long as they're not invasive, but my point is a more naturalistic garden is going to bring many different plants. We're gonna have layering of trees and shrubs and perennials and some ground covers. We're also going to have as many different types throughout the whole season of things that are blooming, that have different size flowers, that have different colors of flowers, that are different host plants for different insects. So like when I look out my window here, I have the first bed I ever started with maybe four, five hundred square feet, and it's almost all native now as I've learned about different native plants. And like there's always something blooming, and I see different bees, as an example, on different plants. I've seen bees on my Lanceleaf Coreopsis here that I've never seen before. I saw a minute pirate bug, which I've never seen in my garden before. So, like, if we want more naturalistic kind of stewards of the earth gardens, then we wanna have a lot of plant diversity. We're gonna see a little more leaves on the ground. We're gonna see a pile of sticks under the tree behind the hedge over there, and we're gonna also see a lot of different insects. You're gonna see different birds.

Amy Powers: 10:24

You're gonna see all kinds of diversity. We bring the diverse habitat with the plants. That brings the diversity of insects and all the other wildlife with it. So hopefully, I'm gonna hear some frogs. You know? Maybe I'm gonna see some ladybugs. Yeah. So naturalistic gardens, a little little more diverse.

Erin Garrett: 10:42

And I think too for at least for me, that's really exciting as a gardener because it like opens a whole new world of plant options too. Right? It's not just the same things that you see at the big box stores every year that's in everyone's garden, but it's like, oh, I can get some different things. And then people in the neighborhood could be like, what's that? I've had people be like, what's that plant that's blooming in your yard? And I'm like, here, you can have some of it because it's self seeding. Here you go. You can have it. Yes.

Amy Powers: 11:11

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Erin Garrett: 11:12

But, yeah, I think it's fun to, like, I don't know, just have different options, and then you can have, like, a little bit more unique garden too. So it's it's a like, new world, and yeah.

Amy Powers: 11:22

There's that

Amy Powers: 11:23

Because this bed I started about eight years ago was about maybe 30% and now it's going more and more native. And now I'm like, oh, wait. Like, do I really need the hellebores anymore? I could just take those out because I need room for this Bradbury's monarda. And, like, do I need clover? You know? Like, now I find myself kinda running out of room and and taking out the non native stuff so I can try the more native thing. So there's so many plants out here that are so much fun and beautiful, and there's also the fun of the learning about how those plants grow because they're specialists. Right? They're not as generalist. They want specific soil moisture and specific sun and shade. And so, like, you're like, oh, I wonder if I put one over there if that'll do well. And I have a spot over here. Maybe I'll try a little over there. So, yeah, there's a little more excitement and learning in that too, I think.

Abigail Garofalo: 12:15

Mhmm. Well, and that's what I'm noticing is like when you talk about it, it's like this I like to call it like the naturalist gardener mindset of like, I wonder how it will do if I try this versus like, I plant it here, why did it like, I'm just gonna replant another one when it dies. Right? Like those are two different mindsets and one is like a little bit more curious about the world. And that really creates so much more like interest as well as just like, I don't know, I just feel like that's a big mindset shift for gardening that really just helps you with the lens of the world, I guess. I don't know.

Amy Powers: 12:50

And I just listened to a pod not a podcast, a video from a gerontologist, so a doctor who works with elderly patients. Mhmm. And she said the rule amongst gerontologists, and she had cited some research that had said, like, basically, don't get comfortable as you age. She said, physically, don't get comfortable. And gardeners, we now know, we see all of lots of research about people that live to have good health long term are people who are getting up and down off the ground and digging, and mentally, native gardening is a great way to keep yourself mentally challenged. Right? Because you're like, man, it's kind of why didn't the butterfly weed grow here? Like, according to the plant tag, it should have been fine. You know what I mean? You're gonna be great. It's doing great over here, so that's telling me about my soil. So I must have less moisture here than I thought. Okay. So you know I mean? Like, there is there is. There's the the challenge of it that keeps us all, I think, curious and mentally young.

Abigail Garofalo: 13:47

Well, and I think so when it comes to native gardening shifting a little bit, some people get concerned about it because of aesthetics. They're like, well, I can't put a prairie in my front yard, in my neighborhood. We're gonna talk to somebody later this season about like municipal codes. I'm more thinking about like what people want out of a garden and the look of a garden. How can we balance that between like, aesthetics and then, like, the responsibility we wanna have ecologically?

Amy Powers: 14:12

There are so many plants that are native. So many. So this bed that I have over here is right on the sidewalk in the property line, couple 100 square feet. Southwest corner, pretty hot, but it's the swale and it's new construction ten years ago, so it's a lot of compacted clay, and so I've learned a lot over here. And what I've learned is I think my whole mission to get people on board with native plants is you can have aesthetics, and you can have beauty, and you can follow design patterns, and do it with native plants. And so what I've been trying out over here are all the plants. I mean, like I just told you, I put in hundreds just this year going with that every 12 every 12 inch apart perennial spacing. Mhmm. And I have learned that there are prairie smoke. It's like not even 12 inches tall.

Abigail Garofalo: 15:07

Erin's favorite.

Erin Garrett: 15:08

It's my favorite.

Amy Powers: 15:09

I love Jacob's ladder. Jacob's ladder is a great plant. It's beautiful. And you can don't even need a cultivar of it. Prairie smoke, the pure species is fantastic. Low plant. I love blue grama grass. Hard to find it. Mhmm. But I love blue grama grass. I love lanceleaf coreopsis. I love purple love grass. These are low plants. You don't even have an eight foot tall cup plant in your front yard. Mhmm. If you have room for it in the backyard and you can manage it because it's an aggressive spreader, okay. There's nuance to common milkweed, there's a nuance to the goldenrods, but there's a lot of great goldenrod. Bluestem goldenrod in the shade has the coolest shape. I love it so much in a shade garden. So, like, there are so many plants under three feet tall, like, so many. I can't I'm I just named 20 off the top of my head. Right? Like, you can have a beautiful native garden with drifting and aesthetics and layering and not use any imported plants. You can.

Amy Powers: 16:12

So, like, when we just think of the plethora, I think what happens is there are many gardens in our communities, and some people have just gone willy nilly and grabbed the the prettiest flowers. Mhmm. And now you've got cup plant everywhere, and you've got Rudbeckia everywhere, and now you you lost the eastern red columbine, and all those other plants are gone because there is nuance to these things. Right? I I don't think we're doing a service when we say things like native plants are just easier. They're not. Some of them are. A lot of them are. So, like, don't bite off more than you can chew. There's a ton of options out there. A lot are very easy to manage and you can do it with aesthetics. I think you can do both. You don't need to let your front lawn turn into a 10 foot tall mess.

Erin Garrett: 17:02

And I think for some people too, it's like you see more like wildflower plantings, know, in larger areas that has like a sign that's like pollinator habitat and you see that and you're like that looks like a jungle, like I don't want that in my front yard. Or sometimes signs are put up. I don't know. I've seen, like, pollinator habitat, and it's like, teasel behind it, which is invasive. And it's like, maybe a little bit false marketing or advertising of what's going on there. And so I think there is that, like, we had, like, the really big push of, like, everyone has to plant common milkweed. Everyone has to put big bluestem in. Right? It was, like, that's what native gardening was. And it's, like, no. That's not really what you wanna put in in a small home landscape, right, if you're doing larger, you know, restoration that works, but I think like you said there's a lot of nuance and there is a lot so if people have, you know, tried some native plants and like it didn't work for me, it doesn't work in my yard, there are a lot of options that can, so you know, we encourage people to try some other things, research and look and see with your conditions too.

Amy Powers: 18:06

Conditions and how does this plant spread, and at what level does it spread? It's the first thing I do. Because I've been at the native plant sale, that's how I got started. I had this non native bed and I was like, it's just kinda okay. And so then I'm like, Wild Ones West Cook County chapter has a $5 a plug. $5 a plug, man. I'll buy anything. $5 a plug. Well, yeah. And then I bought some things that were, like, super aggressive, and I had to take them out. Right? So, like, it's the first the first rule of natives is know how it spreads. I think you gotta start there. Not everything is for a home garden. ostrich ferns. I love ostrich ferns. But, like, they'll take over, and now you're gonna have to dig them up and pull them out. And so I think that's the first thing. And because people don't start there, they it ends up taking over their garden, and then they can't manage it. And then it becomes this overgrown front yard, and I understand why municipalities are getting nervous about giving the green light to native vegetation if it's not done properly.

Amy Powers: 19:10

So I think you can have it all though. I do. Yeah. I think the I think the one thing about aesthetics is like just the the biggest tip I have from a design perspective is when you find a native plant that works in that area, so I'm I'm a fan of just buy one. Just buy one, start a small bed, try a few onesies early spring, mid spring, late spring, right?

Amy Powers: 19:34

Try to get one of everything and see how they do in that area, and when you find things that work, I want I want five feet of the same plant. I think that's where people go wrong. Mhmm. We don't get enough rhythm in the design if we don't have enough. So like, again, over here with this bloom, people are freaking out this week on my videos that I've been doing in this bed.

Amy Powers: 19:56

They're like, oh my gosh, that bed looks so nice. Yeah, I know. It's taken me a long time, but I found that pale purple coneflower does great here, and I have found that the scarlet bee balm does really great here, and so now that this is all blooming together, the penstemon's just finishing up, I've got the switch grass in the back for some height, but it's the rhythm, it's how many of those plants are in bloom at the same time. So when those pale cone flowers pop up, there's five feet of them. Mhmm. It also makes it easier for insects to find them. Right? So it's like and I think the other thing is going out into nature, you'll see those design patterns. Mhmm. This Pete Oudolf naturalistic design thing is really bringing something old, ancient actually.

Amy Powers: 20:43

Right? Go out into the woodlands where I like to walk, and you will see woodland sunflower for about a 150 feet. Uh-huh. It's in the wild under those oak trees in the east woodlands. I mean, you will just see this thing has so that's a drift. It's a bigger drift on a bigger scale on a 1,500 acre Morton Arboretum property, so I don't need a 150 feet of it, but, you know, when we've that's how things things in nature find that little low area which holds a little moisture, and that's a plant that likes medium moisture, and it likes the dappled sun. So it goes, okay, I'll drop seeds and fill in here as much as I can, and then when it reaches the top of this little hill where I walk, you can see where it becomes more dense with the trees, and so there's less sun there, and it's probably a little drier, and now you'll see the Joe Pye weed popping up, and you'll see that biennial bellflower coming up. And so like, oh, so this woodland sunflower area is the ideal conditions for that plant, and it grows in this colony or a drift or a mass. Mhmm. Then we'll see the joe pye weed coming up in a different area.

Amy Powers: 21:55

Right? So like that drifting, it feels very natural. It happens that way in nature anyway for not all plants, but a lot of plants. So let's repeat that pattern in our gardens Mhmm. And get a little more rhythm to the design by not just getting one. Get one, try it out, make sure it's happy there. Now we go get a couple and we put them together, and then we like to use that in a dip that same plant in a different area of the garden, three to five. So now I have some southwest bed has a nice drift of pale purple coneflower, and then over on the front lawn towards the sidewalk, drift of five feet of pale purple coneflower. Right? So we're getting a little rhythm. That's what shows Benjamin Vogt, he wrote the book Prairie Up, he talks about cues to care. Right? So that shows that this is an intentional planting. This isn't gonna be a wild mess. We've put some thought into it. We have drifts, and we're using it in multiple places.

Erin Garrett: 22:54

I love that because that's exactly what I finally got to this year in my garden with my just just regular purple coneflowers is I had a few of them, and then now they've self seeded enough that I've been able to move them around. I moved them around last year, and then they needed a year to kinda get established, and now this year I have the one big drift here, I have a smaller drift over here, and then one over here, and I'm like, oh, it looks like like intentional. It looks like

Amy Powers: 23:22

And you just described the smartest way to do it was to get started, let them self seed, and now you've got a little nursery of your own. Mhmm. So going native is actually cheaper because I'm getting free penstemon plants every year, and I'm deciding now I wanna go into the backyard with some natives. Okay. I'm gonna try the pen and you get to try these plants at a different location for free.

Erin Garrett: 23:44

Exactly. Mhmm. Yeah.

Amy Powers: 23:45

So let me dig up a baby echinacea, and let me try it in that back area. They're like, oh, it looks so good. Now it's seeding there. It's seeding here. I'm feeding birds too with those seeds. Some of these plants are host plants with little caterpillars living off my golden Alexander. Right? So like not only are we getting the rhythm and the design and the aesthetic, but also the ecological value of trying to bring back those 40% of the insects we've lost on the planet. Right? So we're bringing pollinators for the adults, host plants, that's the other reason why we want the diversity. Right? Milkweed is great for monarchs. Monarchs aren't the only insect in trouble. They're all in trouble. So let's also think about host plants other than milkweed. I love the milkweed, I've got two varieties myself, but we wanna bring a diversity of host plants for a diversity of insects, which bring diversity of birds, etcetera. So yeah, it's like you can, it just knocks off so many, checks off so many boxes, right?

Erin Garrett: 24:44

Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 24:46

So good.

Erin Garrett: 24:47

So you know, we've chatted a little bit about, you know, not paying attention to how much a native plant can spread. You mentioned the lanceleaf coreopsis and we put two into one of our food donation gardens that has a gravel path and we have thousands of lanceleaf coreopsis, we're never gonna get rid of it. So we're learning to embrace it but understanding how aggressive and then maybe not thinking about the design elements a little bit. So what are some other mistakes that people make that kind of end up disrupting these natural cycles instead of working with nature?

Amy Powers: 25:27

So the two big things that two big mistakes I started out doing, well intentioned too. Mhmm. Number one is holes in your leaves. Okay? The amount of people that send me a DM almost every day with, OMG, something's devastating my plants. I've got holes in the roses. They're, oh my gosh, it's everywhere. What do I do? Right? First of all, I think we're so far removed from nature that we don't realize that plants get eaten by insects and they should get eaten by insects. We think of those monarch butterflies. I keep bringing that up as kind of so it's the the insect that most of us heard the most about, the big beautiful monarch butterfly. So we think about that life cycle. Right? Here comes the adult looking for something to drink with their tiny little eyes, and they see these big beautiful blooms, and they put their proboscis in, and their their little straw, and they drink out the nectar.

Amy Powers: 26:21

So we think about pollinator gardens as being for the adults, but they need something to lay their eggs on and that each insect generally requires a type of plant to live off of. Right? Like I tell the sixth graders at the MacArthur International Spanish School, I taught them how to grow their own plants this winter, and then we planted a pollinator garden. I told them, when we're selecting plants, we also wanna look at host plants because the flowers are for the adults. When that egg gets laid and it hatches into a little larva, the larva doesn't have wings. It can't fly around looking for plants to eat. It can't find flowers. It's it can barely move them. Mean, you ever see one of those little black swallow tails? I mean, they're they're a quarter of an inch. That guy's not going anywhere but where it is standing to eat, and so it needs to eat holes in the leaves. I didn't think about that. I didn't know that when I first started. And so I'm panicking like, OMG, what's eating my plants? Right? And then you start reading about insects and realizing that is part of a natural cycle. So I think all of us kind of not freaking out whenever we see a hole in the leaf, first of all, it's normal and natural. Second of all, unless it becomes an issue where the leaves are being skeletonized, and now we may have an invasive pest like Viburnum leaf beetle, right? Like most holes in the leaves are fine. This year my Joe Pye weed started to get holes, and I flipped the leaves and I couldn't figure out what it was, and so then I still haven't figured out what it is, and it doesn't really matter because now that it has filled in and I I just I took a little breath and a pause, I still have some holes in the lower leaves, but now the plant looks fine. Mhmm. You know what I mean? So like, I think number one, our plants aren't supposed to look perfect. I've got an accolade elm in the parkway, and that common hackberry tree. All the galls are all over the leaves constantly. Yay. I'm supporting insects on those trees. Mhmm. So, I've had to just take a backup that I'm not supposed to have this perfect Pinterest picture of a yard. Mhmm. And that at a distance, I can't even tell looking out my window right now, there's galls on those leaves, or there's holes on the bottom of the Joe Pye weed over there. Who cares? Like so, like, just kind of learning to let nature happen is, I think, a really big mistake I made, and, like, I don't need to spray neem oil on everything. Right? Like, just back off and let's see how nature you know, it's almost like the Finding Nemo movie with dude crush the turtle. And the little and the little squirt comes out. It's like, dude, let's see how he handles this, man. Calm down. Right? So, like, I think there's a little bit of let's calm down, and and let's just let nature run its course and see what happens.

Amy Powers: 29:07

Right? The other big, big, big, big, big problem is that people hear the word honeysuckle and wisteria or St. John's wort, and they think it's native or it's good or it's bad. And what we generally all of us don't have a great education on is is biological nomenclature. We don't know the kingdom phylum, all those things. And so not all Saint John's worts are native. Not all honeysuckles are invasive. Most people think, I've done videos on northern bush honeysuckle. I love that plant. It can handle shade. It's small. Most native shrubs are huge. So I love a three to four foot native shrub. Why is everyone screaming that it's invasive? They just hear the word honeysuckle and think it's bad. Honeysuckle and wisteria and Saint John's wort, those are family categories of plants worldwide. Mhmm. Some of them we imported over for their beautiful flowers, and then we found out later it's really destructive to the environment, and they're invasive, so now we need to try to get rid of those. But like I had a neighbor who told me they love their Saint John's wort and they're native. And so when I was over there, she was on vacation, I was watering her plants for her and I was like, oh, that's not native Saint John's wort.

Amy Powers: 30:27

And she told me she had an elderberry native, which I was so thrilled about, and no, the one with the black leaves, like that's not native elderberry. So like, it's really not just that one common name. I think a big mistake, and I I made it too when I first started out, you need to do a little bit of Internet research. And nowadays, we have we have all of humanity's information in my pocket. It takes ten seconds now to say, you can even voice text it. Right? Open your favorite browser. Is is Wisteria fruitensis invasive? No. Is Wisteria sinensis invasive? Yes. Oh, okay. Shouldn't buy that one. Right? So, like, there's really not an excuse now that we don't do a little a little bit of ten second deeper dive before we buy anything. Is it invasive? How aggressive? Does it spread? Those are things we could just find out right away. So I think my naivete also around cultivars, right?

Amy Powers: 31:32

So like, oh, cone flowers are native, so I should plant cone flowers. Well, now we have these double blooming they don't even look like coneflowers anymore. They have the petals around the center, but other than that, the center's double the height, and the research shows that, yeah, these little butterflies are sticking their proboscis in there trying to find the they can't even find the nectar. Mhmm. So, like, we really just need to do a little bit of research on what does if we're going native and I'm looking for a native, what does the pure native species look like? What color is it? What flower arrangement? What petal arrangement? What color are the leaves? We wanna try to stick as much as possible to the native leaves and the native flowers as possible.

Erin Garrett: 32:17

Mhmm. Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 32:19

And have that and feel like that feels really overwhelming, like, that conversation with your local Extension office or like some maybe I have a neighbor who does native gardening as well, I recognized it as soon as I walked by her house, and I was like, she's now like my buddy, like, we share plants. Mhmm. And so it's like, share that information with Yes. Each other. You see a cool garden, I guarantee you that gardener wants to talk about it and like tell you about the work that they've done. So it's like have that what's really popular now too is like native garden walks. Go to one of those. Right? Have that conversation with that homeowner. They're hosting you because they want to. Like.

Amy Powers: 32:57

Right? I'm on the garden walk in Arlington Heights this Sunday, and I've got signs. My daughter's helping me make signs and sticking them up to tell people, like, here's what's in bloom right now. I have a couple non natives still. Again, this is the other thing. You don't need to be 100% native right away.

Erin Garrett: 33:12

Mhmm.

Amy Powers: 33:12

Right? Like, just pick just start. Just get started at your own pace. Right? Pick a plant that you like. Maybe, like you say, your neighbor has one, and maybe she'll give you a piece of it, and you can try it in your garden, and and and get started on your own pace. You don't need to rip everything out. Mhmm. No one's gonna arrest you because you have some turf grass. It's okay. Right? I just I I think all of us just need to ask questions more. Why do I have this much turf grass? Do I need this much turf grass? Could I go native? You know? And you're totally right on. Extension offices, your local county Extension has services and people who this is what they do. Right? Like you guys. So why not go out and and and solicit a second opinion too? I think that's a really great idea.

Erin Garrett: 34:00

We love to talk plants if you can't tell. So we're always happy. We're like, yes. We'll chat about it. What questions do you have?

Amy Powers: 34:10

And you might find somebody that's grown that in your area already and been like, this is a great plant or. Only if you pair it with something else that's pretty tough. I wouldn't even put that by itself. Know, like, yeah. Mhmm.

Abigail Garofalo: 34:22

Very nice. Okay. So moving on to some like practical, like what to do like specifically in our yard. So this season is in the fall. Yeah. So let's start with the fall. Right? What are the top three nature inspired tasks gardeners should prioritize in fall?

Amy Powers: 34:43

Stop pruning. Stop cutting anything back. I know that's what your mom told you to do, and it's what your dad did. Okay? We are not gardening in the same environment that they were gardening in. And so practices like cutting back in the fall. I see people in my neighborhood hedge trimming huge hedges in September. Right? So number one, let's work with the energy cycle of the plant. Right?

Amy Powers: 35:13

When we hear about applying herbicides, we hear about stump applications in the fall. That's because in the fall, plants are pulling down sap, which is food. Right? They're making food in the canopy of the leaves, and they're pulling all that sunlight into those green leaves and needles, and they're making food, and it gets stored as sap down in the roots. So pretty much late summer, I say August 1, stop pruning. Don't prune. Let the plant work really hard at making food to pull down in the roots for the winter. I think people think, oh, my plants are dormant in the winter. They're not dormant at all. I don't like the word dormant.

Amy Powers: 35:54

I don't like going to sleep for the winter. They're not. If you ever look under a microscope, I watched a YouTube video one time where it showed the cellular activity like under the bark, like that plant's trying not to freeze here in Chicago. All winter, every day and night, the sun goes down and it's trying to stay alive. The amount of shifting of salts and fluids to try to protect stem tissue from freezing in-depth is takes a lot of work that comes from the food made in late summer and fall.

Amy Powers: 36:27

So don't cut away the canopy, don't cut away the solar panels, don't take those green leaves and needles away when they need it the most. The other thing that happens when we prune, every time we prune, the plant immediately wants to try to seal the wound up that we just made and repair it by putting out new growth. We don't want new growth coming out in September because we have frost coming by mid October, and we don't want that new growth to get damaged because it hasn't had time to harden off. My Limelight Hydrangea, four months after pruning, still lime green pliable stems with no bark coating yet, not hardened off. Four months after pruning, still not hardened off. So we don't wanna prune for a lot of reasons in the fall. The other thing is, like I just said, we get frost in Chicago in the middle of October. Are we gonna I don't know. Do you not? Go ask a meteorologist what they think is gonna happen this year.

Amy Powers: 37:25

We have we have a weakened jet stream now. That solid wall of air held off that polar vortex and those warm temperatures from the South and kept our temperatures in the Midwest very consistent. Now that is a weakened jet stream, and cold polar air is unstable now pushing down. I don't know. There's lots of things happening out here now that I don't never happened before. So, you know, look how many tornadoes we're having this year in the state of Illinois. We have we have changing weather patterns. So let's work with the energy of the the cycle of the plant and set it up for as much success as possible in case we get a polar vortex in November. You know what I mean? So let let's let the plant do its thing and just kinda relax and let the plant go to bed.

Amy Powers: 38:16

Don't don't also don't forget, your spring growth, those lilac flowers, the magnolia blooms, where do you think the energy comes to push out those flowers? There's no leaves on a magnolia when it first blooms. So it's not coming from the leaves it made that spring, and there's hardly any sunlight at that point anyway in March and April. So the energy to make your beautiful spring growth comes from all the food that was able to be stored in late summer and fall. So let the plant go to bed, prune when the energy is going up in the springtime. Okay? Let's stop pruning, number one.

Amy Powers: 38:54

Number two, leave your leaves. Leave your dead perennials. Leave the seeds. Leave everything alone. That's how nature has always worked. It gives you another season of interest. I think it's a wonderful thing that Pete Oudolf did, the landscape designer famous around the world for naturalistic plantings is brown is a color. Seed heads are part of the design.

Amy Powers: 39:17

I see the way he layers the prairie drop seed in front of something with a dark seed head. Because when those when those beautiful hazy, silvery seed heads of the prairie drop seed get massed together, they make this kind of whimsical screen, and then up pop these really dark seed heads in behind. Right? So he has made winter a season of interest that he designs for on purpose. So winter is something for us to enjoy, and it also leaves seeds for birds.

Amy Powers: 39:49

There's overwintering insects. There's bees in some of those stems overwintering. So leave as much decaying material as you can, including all of your leaves. There's nuance to that, of course, if you have way more leaves than you can handle in your beds. We don't want a thick mat of leaves so that water and air can't flow through to the soil, so let's make sure that we're taking into account your own individual conditions and what types of leaves you have. But leave as much leaves as you can. It's free mulch. It's free compost that gets cycled nutrients back into your soil. It feeds the microbiome and all that microbial activity in your soil, we're leaving all the insect habitat, we're leaving food for the birds, and winter interest for us to enjoy. So that to me is a no brainer.

Amy Powers: 40:40

And then the other thing is collect seeds, especially if you're doing natives. A lot of native perennials don't live forever, many of them only three to five years. And so what I like to do is leave a third for the birds, leave a third well, I like to keep at least a third for myself to reseed, but I wanna sprinkle them into the areas where I want them if possible. That way I don't have milkweed popping up all over the place or the penstemon. Right?

Amy Powers: 41:09

So leave some for the birds. I'd say probably 50%. When we do the conservation work with the prairie stewards, we say a third for the birds, a third for self seeding, and a third for you to take off, and we expand the prairie somewhere else with those seeds. So I wanna reseed where I want them to seed. So if I'm trying to develop a nice five, six foot drift here of penstemon, then I wanna snip those seed heads off and sprinkle them where I want them.

Amy Powers: 41:38

Then they go through that cold stratification. Not all native seeds need cold stratification, but many of them do. So it's just easy to drop them there in the fall. So I think kind of building out your own drifting and massing of the same plant by collecting and dropping your seeds where you want them, I think those are kind of my my top three fall ecological garden action items.

Abigail Garofalo: 42:02

And you learn so much collecting the seeds, I feel like. Like, you get so many fun opportunities to see the different just even growing your own native garden, like, get to see you're like, I I know what, like, the seedling of each of my plants looks like now, and that's like a a funny identification thing that a lot of people are like, I don't know what that looks like when it's not in flower, when it's Right. The baby. Right? And then also too, seed libraries are becoming really popular. It feels like they're looking for like, a lot of these, like, actual libraries are taking their, like, catalog things Yeah. And using them for the seed libraries. And what a great, like, contribution is to give those to the local seed library as well to spread that prairie around, like Yes. And and give people a a chance to start something and and share. So Yeah.

Amy Powers: 42:52

So, a third for your local library, your seed swap, a third for you to reseed, and a third to leave there for the birds, I think is great. The other I think that's a great point too. I see a lot of libraries now having these really cool and they you're right. Librarians are great at cataloging everything. Right? The other point you made too about how you learn about the plant when you're seed collecting. You know, I was out inspecting my lanceleaf coreopis, and I was like, oh, those seed heads still look pretty green. But as I was investigating, half of them have been pecked apart already. Mhmm. So those American goldfinches get moisture out of the seed heads. There's sometimes insects in there even though they're not ripe yet. Mhmm. Your it shows you how much your plants at all the stages are affecting the ecology and and offering up food and water and insect life and food for birds. Right? So it's it's just inspecting your plants in general is a really great way to, like, get really excited about seeing that the birds are eating the seed heads off your plants. That's exactly what we want.

Erin Garrett: 43:59

Mhmm. I think it's fun too. I know this year, for me, it's year three of my native gardens and the house that we live in now. And so some of my plants that are a little bit slower to establish, like, are finally putting seed out. So, like, my blue star finally has pods this year, so I'm like, I'm so excited.

Erin Garrett: 44:18

I get to, like, collect them for the first time. And, like, it's also fun to kind of see I have a lot a very large drift of white wild indigo and so to see how those seed pods develop and, like, some of the long stalks, like, there's only, like, one pod, and it's like, oh, what happened with those? Like, those flowers didn't get pollinated, and so they didn't produce seed. And it's just kind of interesting to see, like, where it's successful and where it's not, and it's just kind of fun to, like, observe. Sometimes we're not thinking about that in more traditional gardens. Right? But, like, in this way, it's like, oh, yay. Like, the next stage, right, if we get to see that whole process happen. So

Amy Powers: 44:58

Oh, yeah. It's awesome. And I can just hear how excited you are, and the curiosity gets kicked off, right? When you're out there just learning new stuff. Uh-huh. We love learning new stuff.

Erin Garrett: 45:08

We are all really busy. And so sometimes it's hard to get around to some of these different practices, right? I know I've got there's like a list of things to do in the garden and it just seems to keep growing. So are there some kind of lower effort high impact practices that people can prioritize if they just seem to be too busy to like, get in the garden as much as they want to?

Amy Powers: 45:35

Yeah. I mean, to me, especially in the fall, I don't do anything in the fall. I mean, what am I doing? I'm leaving the leaves exactly where they are Mhmm. And I'm just observing. Like, really I think growing up, fall was the time when we all scrambled to get the leaves up, and my mom was assigning us raking duties, and off we were going. And, like, fall is the most low effort season of all. Kick your feet up and watch. Go for a walk. It's cool now, you know, like your your work is done.

Amy Powers: 46:05

Fall is leave it, you know. And if you wanna get the seeds and deadhead and spread them, that's kind of a fun, easy, low effort thing to do. But leaving your leaves where they lie and you're not pruning, so, like, leave it all. I think I think fall, I would love to turn it into, like, the the sit back and enjoy season, You know? Hopefully, you still have things blooming.

Amy Powers: 46:27

Hopefully, you've got asters and and and goldenrods, you know? And hopefully, you're just sitting back and enjoying the fact that you built a garden that is sustaining these monarch butterflies on the way back to Mexico in late October, you know? Like, yeah, I think it's probably the fun the other fun tip too is like, is your garden still blooming? You know? Like, that would be one thing that I'd be looking at, and just kinda making notes and sitting back and enjoying what you just did, you know? Pretty low effort.

Abigail Garofalo: 47:01

Well, and that's like in the fall, like you were saying, like kick back because there's so many important things happening in that garden. Right? So what what are some of like the things that are helping prepare the garden for like healthy growing season the following season, surviving the winter? What are some things that are happening that are that we are supporting by leaving alone?

Amy Powers: 47:23

Yeah. So one is that phenology and that that the energy cycle is the plants are making food from the sunlight as much as possible and storing it down for winter survival, so that's a big deal. The other one is mulching, letting the leaves fall to help insulate. That's free mulch. That helps our plants get keep some moisture, right, going into the wintertime and during the winter, helps regulate and modulate that soil temperature from fluctuations, which is really important for plants that are trying to survive the winter.

Amy Powers: 47:57

And then also, it's giving leaf cover to all of those native insects. The bumblebees live in that leaf cover. Right? I I had a lot of swallowtail butterflies last year, and I noticed even in November, they were still in that larval stage and hadn't run off and pupated yet. And I'm like, man, like, it's pretty late.

Amy Powers: 48:17

And there those those guys are gonna run off and find a place to hide for the winter and make their little chrysalis. So we're also gonna get all that biodiversity, and those insects are the ones that are gonna pop out here and help us with the pest infestations. Right? They're gonna help feed the birds. The birds are gonna then come in and eat the pests.

Amy Powers: 48:35

So like that, leaving all of that diversity of habitat in the winter for the insects that stay here is really important for the birds and all those things that help pest management in our gardens. So that's really important. And then I love soil. I think the chemist in me loves the soil microbiome and the nematodes and the bacterias and the viruses and the fungal networks. All that organic material is going to get broken down by those insects and cycle those nutrients back into the soil, and the soil microbiome itself, the fungus is going to get in there and eat away at those leaves and cycle things back too.

Amy Powers: 49:17

So it's mulch, we're now composting, so if we wanna hit the ground running in the spring with healthy soil, leaving as much organic matter around the garden as possible in the fall is a great way to do that too. Not to mention leave some twigs, leave some logs. There's specific insects that overwinter in that decaying wood material. So those are the things that are really gonna help hit the ground running in the spring and protect your plants in the winter time. Yes.

Abigail Garofalo: 49:47

You and me soil people right here.

Amy Powers: 49:49

Oh, know. This is why this is why I like you so much is you're the soil girl.

Erin Garrett: 49:54

So we chatted a lot kind of when we when we got on today just about different ways of sharing information, how we communicate information. I think we're in this world now where everyone wants small bites of information. Right?

Amy Powers: 50:09

Yeah.

Erin Garrett: 50:09

Like 30 seconds to answer my question and solve my problem. So moving into like more of the influencer realm, how can you know you and others help shift people away from kind of these mindsets that we have that you talked about like I do this because my dad did this and my grandma did this and this is how this is how we do things, but now we've learned a little bit more, we know more information, we have a shifting environment. How can you help kind of shift that mindset of folks in the way that you communicate?

Amy Powers: 50:43

So I think number one, I think as influencers, content creators, educators, it's very important not to judge. So like number one, I still grow peonies, and I still grow roses, and people are always gonna have a lilac or two around. So I think it's important not to shame people for what they know. Right? That's all they know.

Amy Powers: 51:06

They don't know. They didn't they didn't get a master's degree in ecology. Right? They did what they did in their life, and this is all they've ever known. So I think making sure that we always approach things as much as possible from perspective of what the Japanese called beginner's mind.

Amy Powers: 51:22

I have a meditation practice. We try to be in beginner's mind. Right? Like, this person doesn't know. So trying to keep things as nonjudgmental, non shaming, and as open as possible. I think that's how influencers gain trust. I think people trust me. They tell me, no problem. If you tell me, they trust me. Right?

Amy Powers: 51:44

And then I also think if we're gonna get people on board with naturalistic ecological gardening, there has to be aesthetic to it. It has to be pretty. Okay? I think there are people out there that want the five minute long detailed video I did about invasive plants last week. They love it.

Amy Powers: 52:04

I went in you know, the whole idea that climate change is making it worse, they are more advantageous, they're more generous. I mean, I went into the whole I haven't done a video like that because it's not as digestible to the general public, but there are people that love that. There are people that only want it in short bites, so I try to gain trust, use no shaming, no judgment, it's all you know, and then I just try to come in with the facts as much as possible. Right? And it has to look nice.

Amy Powers: 52:36

Most people that want the short version, they don't live on the edge with us other science geeks. We're out here, the curiosity drives our gardens. Right? For a lot of people, they they want to do better. I think most people are now starting to realize like this climate change thing is real, uh-oh.

Amy Powers: 52:53

Like my mom said to me last summer, like, man, we really screwed this up, didn't we? And I'm like, yeah, we really did. Right? So like, I think I think we're now coming around to this, and most people want to do better, but they don't want something that's going to be high maintenance. So if we can keep something pretty and manageable, then I just try to stick with things that are manageable.

Amy Powers: 53:17

That's why I do videos like, should you keep your common milkweed in your garden? Well, lot of people were like, OMG, this is seven feet tall and taken over, I wish I never planted it. And there are some people, the hardcore science geeks that are like, don't care, I'll put in as much time as it takes, I will keep this plant, here's how I manage it. Right? So like, we also need to make sure we don't cast everybody with the same brush.

Amy Powers: 53:39

So there's 300,000,000 people in America alone, Not all of them want simple and pretty from Pinterest, some people do. So, you know, we just gotta keep in mind that we've got various people consuming the information, and to try to keep it as digestible as possible for everybody, and throw in some deep cuts. Throw in some five minuters that some people really want. You know, I put some YouTube videos out this year. My son just graduated from Notre Dame with environmental engineering.

Amy Powers: 54:10

So we talk a lot about hydrology, groundwater, stormwater, water management, and so I interviewed his professors, his second professor is emerging contaminants, PFAS, and nitrates in your water, and all of those things. Like, so yeah, I have some three hour long content for people that want that. And then I'm out here trying to get the masses on board, and they don't know anything about this, they don't wanna go get a biology degree, they just wanna do better, but they don't want it to be a mess. So we gotta find a way to keep things looking really beautiful, and simpler to manage, and don't lie to them. I think it's not helpful when people say, tear out your lawn and go native, it's all drought tolerant and every it's gonna be easier.

Amy Powers: 55:00

No, it's not. It's not. Putting a meadow in your front garden is not easy. You got pioneering species that then disappear after a couple years. You got other species that don't come up for three to five years. I mean, look, it's not it's not like this is as easy as as a hydrangea. It's not. Mhmm. So like, be honest with them, tell them what you've learned, show them in your videos. That's the beauty of videos is I can show them, you know? Remember this video I made from three years ago? Here it is three years later, still doing great, you know? Like, I can show people from my own gardens how things are being managed and how they look. So, yeah, it's complicated.

Abigail Garofalo: 55:40

Yeah. But I think leading with authenticity is really key, you were talking about, like being honest, and we try and do that too, like owning up to our own mistake. Like, like, we planted that thing and that did not work out for us, and we're still dealing with it, right?

Amy Powers: 55:54

Yes. Yes. The other thing is a lot of these things are site specific. You know, Benjamin Vogt, as an example, he says that prairie dropsy doesn't do well in the clay where he lives, and so he uses side oats grama.

Amy Powers: 56:06

So I took that advice, and I went and got some side oats grama. And three years later, and it's like this tall, and it doesn't like my bed. Right next to it, my prairie dropseed. It's gorgeous. So the clay in Iowa where he lives is not the same as the clay I have in Northern Illinois.

Amy Powers: 56:24

So like, you really do need to take some $5 plugs and see what works for you. We take as much information from multiple reputable sources as possible, and then we go try, and we see what happens. I didn't know how much water that bed held. It's Southwest. It's right next to the driveway.

Amy Powers: 56:41

It's right next to the concrete sidewalk. Like, it should be so hot and dry, and it's not hot and dry plants actually don't like it there. So, like, you know, I thought, yeah, here I'm an educated person and that's what I thought, and I was totally wrong. So, it's like, it takes a little learning and just approach it with mindfulness and a curiosity, and don't bite off 500 square feet your first year, and start small, and this is why I tell people, I've also been through therapy for more than ten years on anxiety, right? Anxiety is this fear of lack of control, and we assert a lot of control in our lives out in our gardens often because we're trying to have something in our life that we feel we're in control of.

Amy Powers: 57:27

Right? And so I think gardening can be a great way for us to just learn, like, okay, take off whatever works for you. My therapist is like, well, that doesn't work for you right now, Amy. Right? So what works for you?

Amy Powers: 57:41

How many leaves can you leave? I'm okay with people not leaving their leaves everywhere. Leave your leaves in your back beds alone maybe. Maybe maybe start there. Maybe get your husband on board and the two of you agree, like, we're we can just do this. How about just this? That's how I started. Take a little bit, do a little bit and then you're like, oh, I could do that. Okay. Well, I don't like it in this area. Okay. That's what works for you.

Amy Powers: 58:05

What works for you on your pace? Human beings listen, I get into it in the comments all the time with these native plant purists, and I love that. Thank you for being a purist. Thank you for going straight in and taking out your whole lawn. I love that for you.

Amy Powers: 58:22

But we're not gonna get mass adoption if we start shaming everybody who's starting small and still puts fertilizer on their lawn. Okay? We need to let people nobody at humanity changes on a dime usually. Most people, it takes them a lot of time. I've been at this for going on ten years since I didn't even know what a native plant was ten years ago.

Amy Powers: 58:44

I didn't. And now I've got all kinds of them, and now I'm educating people on all of everything I've learned. So like, at your pace, leave as many leaves as you can. What I don't wanna have happen is people take on more than they can, and they hate it, and they can't manage it, because there's a new set of skills that comes along with it. So if your skills aren't at that level yet, then I don't want you jumping in and leaving your leaves everywhere and trying to seed a prairie in your front lawn.

Amy Powers: 59:12

Right? I want you at your pace, and when you get there, I'm here for you at whatever level you're at. So I think it is very doable without ripping everything out and ripping out every Japanese maple and no more hydrangeas, you know? Mhmm. You can do it.

Abigail Garofalo: 59:30

Yeah. That all or nothing is like a is a false dichotomy. Like, we do not need to be doing all or nothing. We started too with like our leaves, like, we

Abigail Garofalo: 59:39

were like, we're gonna fill the garden beds Yeah. And we're gonna fill them as much as we feel comfortable, and whatever's left over, we're gonna let the city take. And that's kinda where we because we were like, it was too much. And then there was one year I was pregnant, and I was like, I can't move all the leaves into the beds this year. Like

Abigail Garofalo: 59:56

Yes.

Abigail Garofalo: 59:57

So it's like, it all it all helps. Right? Like, it all counts in the little bit that you leave. That's the that amount of leaves that were not taken away and put somewhere else.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:00:09

So I think that's all really great.

Erin Garrett: 01:00:10

Well, and I think too, there's a lot of different uses for them, and it doesn't have, like, leaves particular. Right? That usually gets a that's a hot topic in the fall, and it's like, well, if you don't do it all in this way, then it's bad. Right? And it's like, well, no.

Erin Garrett: 01:00:24

I'm gonna take some and put them, like, in my compost bin. I'm gonna put some in my native gardens. I'm gonna start a new vegetable garden raised bed and put them in there, and then I gotta mulch some because I want that, you know, organic matter to get back into my lawn rather than taking it off. So like there's you can do a little bit of a lot of different things in it. Again, it doesn't have to be a purist like, you know, they're not going to the landfill.

Erin Garrett: 01:00:47

That's great. Right? Like, that's kind of what you don't want. Or down the storm drain. So, like, there's a lot of ways to

Amy Powers: 01:00:53

Yeah, I tell people too. Like, I have a lot of people. Thankfully, it's been great that I've seen in the last three years. A lot more clients are saying like, hey, we're gonna go native. Only native. I mean, awesome. But like, out front of the house, I don't recommend you take out all the lawn and put nothing but a prairie. I don't.

Amy Powers: 01:01:08

I I'm a shrub girl. Shrubs are easier to maintain. Shrubs provide habitat for birds. Birds love little places to dirt in and dirt out and get some seeds and go hide in a shrub, and then go over here and try some more seeds and dirt back in again, like, they wanna make a nest in a shrub. So shrubs are more organized and neater looking, they're easier to maintain, and they give you some structure at the front of the house because I now have kids in college, and I remember what it was like some years when somebody was sick, somebody had a bunch of volleyball tournaments.

Amy Powers: 01:01:38

I was sick. I've had back issues off and on my whole life. I I couldn't I don't want anything in front of the house that I am obligated to do a lot of work on or it's gonna be a mess. Mhmm. So I I think too, like, there are lots of different nuanced ways that we can approach this and make it easier to manage Mhmm.

Amy Powers: 01:01:59

Than just rip everything out and put a prairie in your front lawn. Right? Like, there's all kinds of ways we can do this because life happens to us all. Mhmm. Right?

Amy Powers: 01:02:07

And I I want people thinking about that unplanned stuff that you know is going to happen, and so let's not do things that we must do or I'm gonna get a code violation for having weeds 10 feet tall on my front lawn.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:02:23

Yeah. Let's do this for because we're kind of wrapping up here. I wanna one more question for you. I wanna know, like, kind of what your gardening hot take is. What's your one gardening rule you think should be broken?

Amy Powers: 01:02:36

Should be broken?

Abigail Garofalo: 01:02:38

Yeah. That people should break.

Amy Powers: 01:02:40

I think stop fertilizing. Stop fertilizing anything. It's a waste of money. It gets washed out into your ground and surface water, which raises algae blooms. It's just not worth it. For what? My gardens look great. They look great. And you know how to make them greater? Build good soil. You know how you do that? With plants and organic matter, and leaves, and insects. So like, why are we fertilizing? So many people are like, oh, you should throw when are you fertilizing? I'm not.

Amy Powers: 01:03:13

I used to fertilize the roses because they're so disease susceptible to diseases. I've just eliminated the amount of roses I have, and I put one round of fertilizer on one climber. Other than that, I don't touch anything else. Like, why? Even my lawn.

Amy Powers: 01:03:27

When I do organic lawn videos and people are like, you don't put anything on your lawn? It's so green. I'm like, yeah. Nitrogen's in the soil, girl. You don't need to be throwing this down. Stop fertilizing your lawn. We don't need it.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:03:41

Well, Amy, thank you so much for all of your knowledge that you shared with us on changing hearts and minds, about gardening with understanding, and gardening with nature. It's been really wonderful. Clearly, we all vibe really well together. We could talk much, much longer.

Amy Powers: 01:03:57

Okay. Let's do it again.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:03:59

Let's do it again. So we are going to finish today's episode off with everyday observation, where we highlight the mundane and normal of our environment that is actually really interesting. So Erin, I'm gonna have you go first.

Erin Garrett: 01:04:10

I was trying to figure out what because I want it to be an observation from my native garden, and I'm gonna share two because I am. First, one of the big pushes

Abigail Garofalo: 01:04:20

Because you have a podcast and you can.

Erin Garrett: 01:04:22

Exactly. Well, because one might not be exciting to some people. So I wanna start with the fun one. I've just been seeing a lot of lightning bugs coming out in my yard, which makes me really happy. That seems to be kind of the next push that I'm hearing the next insect that we're talking about with native gardening is the lightning bugs or the fireflies however you want to refer to them because their larvae need the leaf litter too to overwinter and so it's just always exciting when we see them in the yard, and it was just fun to have my daughter who just turned one and to be out and find the lightning bugs that are glowing, and just really exciting to see them. So always happy to

Amy Powers: 01:05:00

And to turn down your exterior lighting because they mate by seeing their light, not our light. So if we can turn those lights down, that helps them too. Isn't that so much fun? Reminds me of being a kid again.

Erin Garrett: 01:05:12

I know. That was one thing. We are getting a new garage built, and they were like, well, we'll sure to put a light on the front of the garage. We were like, you don't need to do that at all because we will never use it. We have like a street light in our backyard because there's an alley and when we moved in we had them turn that off too because we're like we don't need a bright light always on in the back and so yeah there's different things you can do but yeah great point with the lights.

Erin Garrett: 01:05:37

Yeah. Okay and then my second one is I was weeding in my garden. Okay so last year, freshly postpartum, I did nothing. Okay. So this year there was a lot of a lot of self seeders.

Erin Garrett: 01:05:52

I had a lot of weeding to do in my native gardens and was weeding and I was reaching my hand over and I looked down and there was a little DeKay's brown snake that was coiled up right where I was about to put my hand and I was so excited he gave me a little fright but I was so excited I was like oh my gosh I love it I found a snake that's not just a garter snake, but a little DeKay's brown snake, and he was so cute. He went and did his little thing and found his little habitat so. Now not everyone loves snakes. We should. Love snakes in their garden, but I was so excited to find him.

Amy Powers: 01:06:27

Yay. You know what that tells me is congratulations on having some biodiversity. Right? Thank you. Have all of those if I had a snake, I'd be so happy.

Amy Powers: 01:06:36

They keep rodents in check. Cool. Again, like, just we need the whole system. Right? I think nice job. I wish I had one of those.

Erin Garrett: 01:06:44

I was so proud of I was so proud. So

Amy Powers: 01:06:46

Yay. I'm so proud of you Erin.

Erin Garrett: 01:06:47

Thanks, Amy.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:06:53

Alright Amy what's your everyday observation?

Amy Powers: 01:06:55

So I've been gardening in this house for coming on ten years in September. I grow a lot of greens. We do a lot of smoothies, we do a lot of collard greens and kale, so in my old house, in this house, I grow multiple varieties every year, and I have to grow them under covers like insect netting because I get all kinds of cabbage loopers or these other butterflies that come in and lay their eggs on them, specifically that family of plants, and they're decimate them, skeletonized leaves. So I have always grown them under insect netting. This year, I didn't have time to grow from seed, and so I bought some, and I ran out and planted them because they were a little root bound in their containers, and then I forgot to put the netting over them.

Amy Powers: 01:07:42

It was probably a week or two before I even realized it, and I ran down there and was like, OMG, I bet they're gone. I mean, normally, those larva shred the leaves in days. And so I I saw holes, and I saw the frass, right, the little poop that they leave, and I was like, oh, my god. And I flipped all the leaves over, and I couldn't find one, which has never happened in a decade. And I'm like, what is going on?

Amy Powers: 01:08:07

There's holes, there's frass. I know these things are eating. Where are they? Well, it took me a couple of days to realize it, but in this bed I have a trellis, and I started noticing way more bird poop. And I'm telling you right now, those caterpillars are being eaten by the birds.

Amy Powers: 01:08:25

I also have so many holes from sawfly larvae in my climbing roses, and this year, even one of my followers was like, oh, your leaves look so nice. What have you been spraying? And I was like, nothing. But I'm telling you, I go flip the leaves over. I've found a few, but I normally have them everywhere.

Amy Powers: 01:08:44

And, of course, I'm telling you, the amount of plant diversity I have in these beds now, especially in the last couple years that I've been trying out all the natives, I'm noticing way more insects I've never seen. Even my daughter's like, there's so many birds in her yard. Uh-huh. I also have a water feature, and the birds are coming in and taking a drink in there. So I'm seeing birds.

Amy Powers: 01:09:06

I have the Merlin bird app, and I'm hearing a brown headed cowbird or something I never heard of before. Like, I'm telling you, I have to do less pest management on my vegetable garden and my roses now because I have way more biodiversity in the last couple years in my garden. Mhmm. So I set up a camera back there, and I'm gonna try to test my theory and prove it out. But, like, there's no other reason why they that would be happening.

Amy Powers: 01:09:34

They found the cabbage, they found the collard greens, they're there, but they don't last long, and I see the remnants, but I don't see one caterpillar. That's so cool. Those are birds feed their young. It's nesting season and fledgling season out here in May and June. Mhmm.

Amy Powers: 01:09:52

And those birds are looking for thousands of caterpillars to feed to their nest every week, and they found them. And I couldn't be happier that they found them, Cause I haven't had to net them, and I don't have to spray anything this year. It's been fantastic.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:10:06

Amazing. I wonder if you have more like raptor species birds too, only because like you have like smaller birds and probably like other smaller. So I'm like, I wonder if you have less I got hawks Yeah. I was like, I bet you you have less rabbit activity too because the hawks are swirling.

Amy Powers: 01:10:24

I have had definitely a lot of rabbit issues last spring. This year, I'm like, I haven't had to cage a lot more things than I normally do. So, yeah. Biodiversity, it's the answer to so many problems.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:10:39

Very cool. I love it. Yes. Alright. I will go.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:10:43

So mine is I have a coreopsis from Erin that I planted.

Erin Garrett: 01:10:48

Just one?

Abigail Garofalo: 01:10:50

Yeah. Thanks for telling me that those were problems when I you gave them out, by the way. No.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:10:56

I need the I need the competition within that bed a little bit. And that's a it's it stays low lying too, so it does pretty well with it. I like it. Mhmm. But anyway, so I've been noticing bees on it, and like they it'll be in the morning, and there'll be like five or six bees on one flower, like, weighing it down, and they're, like, not small, like, they're I mean, they're bigger than, like, your your pinky nail.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:11:19

Like, they're decent sized bees, and I was, what are these? So I actually reached out to Brodie. Brodie Dunn, he's a a guest of the pod as well as does his own he does does some wildlife and insect stuff for us. It was like looking them up in my book and they're what is it called? The long horned bees.

Erin Garrett: 01:11:36

Oh

Abigail Garofalo: 01:11:38

I was like, that's super weird because they're a solitary species, so what are they doing on there? And then Brody was like, maybe they're like doing some kind of mating behavior, and we were like, just it was fun because we were being really curious about like what's going on here. Yeah. Yes. And apparently, they're like that's like they choose to roost at night sometimes on flowers.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:12:00

And so there is like they found this this coreopsis as their like roosting habitat. And they're solitary bees, so I'm not like worried about them with my kids or anything like that. And it's just really cool to see that my native garden that I planted five years ago is supporting like a solitary bee, like a native bee species. It's just it's very fun. So

Amy Powers: 01:12:23

It's so no. Was it the lanceleaf coreopsis?

Abigail Garofalo: 01:12:25

Yeah.

Amy Powers: 01:12:26

Because like I even went out, because mine just bloomed for the first time, planted mine in the fall. Mhmm. And I'm out there just looking at how pretty the flowers are, and then I'm noticing these different types of bees, and then I noticed the minute pirate bug on one of the flowers, and then I saw this little narrow silvery guy, it was a green lacewing larva. So I'm like, dude, one plant. And then of course, I'm going down the rabbit hole on iNaturalist and trying to find out what types of bees they are, and apparently, this is this is the specialist thing. Right? Like, certain flowers produce their pollen and nectar, and the anatomy of the flower is different.

Amy Powers: 01:13:05

So I guess Lanceleaf coreopsis has these tiny little diskette florets. And so they're little they're so little and flat that those small little bees can get right in there and grab all kinds of pollen by going underneath. And it's like you just don't even realize versus a penstemon, the big, you know, trumpet shaped flower, a totally different anatomy of the flower, those long tongue bees and the hummingbirds love those flowers. So it's like, this is why we need the diversity for all the different bees is because the anatomy of all those plants is so different for different insects. I mean, isn't it just Yes. It blows my mind.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:13:42

Yes. This is so great.

Erin Garrett: 01:13:44

A complicated food web in the ecosystem. Right? Like, we need to stabilize it with diversity. That is the only way to go.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:13:54

Super cool. Well, I'm glad we could all have everyday observations from our own gardens today. That's super fun. Yeah. Love it.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:14:02

Well, Amy, thank you again so much. This has been a delight to have you on, and what what a great kickoff to our season to really set the tone as to just be curious and and learn more about our landscapes that we can do right in our own yards. So thank you. This has been another episode of the Everyday Environment Podcast. Check us out next week where we get to talk with Sarah Vogel all about tree care.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:14:27

This podcast is University of Illinois Extension hosted and edited by Abigail Garofalo Erin Garrett and Amy Lefringhouse. Marketing and communications are by Emily Steele. University of Illinois Extension.