Ep. 258 Gardens of the Founding Fathers |#GoodGrowing

Chris Enroth: 00:04

Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, board coach educator with University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today. It is a birthday of America. We're gonna be talking about some of the founding fathers as gardeners. This is going to be an interesting show, and you know I'm not doing this by myself.

Chris Enroth: 00:27

I am joined as always every single week by by horticulture educators Ken Johnson in Jacksonville and Emily Swihart in Milan. Guys, welcome to the show.

Ken Johnson: 00:38

Hello, Chris. Hello, Emily.

Emily Swihart: 00:41

Hi, Chris. Hi, Ken. Chris, this was your idea, and I think it's a great one. Like, I'm excited for this conversation.

Chris Enroth: 00:51

We'll we'll see. There there was a lot

Emily Swihart: 00:56

I know.

Chris Enroth: 00:57

Here. I I did not realize the detailed records that our founding fathers kept about their gardens. It was extensive. We we have a lot to talk about today. We'll we'll see how we do this.

Chris Enroth: 01:11

I I I know we've all been sharing various resources between each other, books, documentaries, lectures. We've all got pages and pages of notes. And I guess we should just dive into this this July 4 episode.

Ken Johnson: 01:33

Yeah. I think we bit off more than we can chew for one episode. Think Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 01:41

I think if we had six months to prepare for this, it it could have taken up our entire six months. Like, there's so much, which I think is good that we're introducing everybody to this idea. So if if this is a topic that interests folks, like, do go seek out some different resources. Like, we've got a couple of books we can, you know, recommend and and mention some other resources. Could travel, you know, to the East and go visit some of these gardens, you know, if you're looking at travel plans.

Emily Swihart: 02:09

But, yeah, we're just, again, kinda just dipping our toe into the the wealth of knowledge that is available. So

Chris Enroth: 02:20

That is true. I I guess if we were smart, we have, like, broken this into multiple episodes. We could have done this throughout the month of July or something like that, but, no, we wanna do it all at once.

Ken Johnson: 02:32

Next year. This this can be the overview episode, and then

Chris Enroth: 02:35

There we go.

Ken Johnson: 02:36

More detail to come.

Chris Enroth: 02:38

Yes. We're we're satellite view. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 02:42

Yeah. Well, okay. So let's let's get into it. So, Chris, like, you brought the idea to us, and you you had originally mentioned, and I think we might have teased on a past episode that we were going to be talking about Thomas Jefferson in particular, and Monticello and the gardens and, you know, research that he did there. But as we started, you know, doing our our research and and diving deeper into it, it's really our like, the founding fathers of America that were gardeners.

Emily Swihart: 03:12

Like, there it was highly important. And, you know, the declaration of independence, you know, is is a key document. But in in preparation for writing that, they were thinking, like, how do we run a nation? How do we support ourselves? Like, what happens if this actually works?

Emily Swihart: 03:30

You know, if we we do declare independence and and we become a, an independent nation, feeding the population, having an economy was a hugely important consideration. And, in addition to Thomas Jefferson, one of the things I I saw that Ben Franklin was extremely concerned about this. He kinda was, like, leading the charge in the conversation. It's an interesting, kind of, like, to lay the foundation. I guess I wanted to share with everybody kind of a a summary, of his notes in which he said there are three ways that a nation could build wealth.

Emily Swihart: 04:04

First one was war, and he said this is robbery, so that's not ideal. Two was commerce, which he categorized as generally cheating. So I don't think he was a fan of that as much either. But then he said three was agriculture, which is the only honest way. And so I that, to me, I I love that.

Emily Swihart: 04:26

In a summary, it kinda set the tone for me as I kept going into the the founding fathers as they were gardeners.

Ken Johnson: 04:35

As a lot of them saw The United States as an agrarian. So I saw Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Monroe, kinda all saw saw The US as an agrarian society, not a a commercial.

Chris Enroth: 04:52

But there was a shift, though, because a lot of our founding fathers, they were not the farmers we think of as, like, today and really not even back then. I think Washington even referred to some American farmers as slovenly. He would because, you know, as as George Washington was trying to figure out and we'll get into this the topic of of enslavement here. But but he was trying to think about, well, how could I reduce my reliance on slaves at my farm? And the idea was to rent out his land, and he said he would never rent his farm out to the slovenly American farmer, only the more esteemed British farmer.

Chris Enroth: 05:41

So they it it it seemed like they really held these this kind of British style of agriculture. Even though we had just broken away from them with the revolutionary war, they still held this in high regard. It kinda helped us rekindle a more friendly relationship with them over time, just that agricultural cooperation between the two countries?

Ken Johnson: 06:06

Yeah. I think one of the issues that came across that Washington had with, like, American gardeners was they or farmers was, one, they grew tobacco, which depleted the soil, and they did nothing to kinda replenish the soil. And they and and you still see this today. You know? My grand my dad did it this way.

Ken Johnson: 06:26

My grandfather did it this way, so I'm gonna do this. So they weren't innovative. And I think one of the arguments was because America had so much land, your land gets exhausted. You just move and cut

Emily Swihart: 06:37

down

Ken Johnson: 06:37

a forest and and grew it up to a new farm. Whereas in England, you had limited space, so they had to be more innovative in, you know, crop rotation. Like, crop rotation was huge back then. You know, it's I mean, it's big now, but I think it kinda pales in comparison to what, you know, England and then, like, some of these founding fathers were doing for crop rotation, like, eight crop seven, eight year cycle, and stuff where you think about Illinois for for farming, it's two. You have corn and beans.

Ken Johnson: 07:06

If that Mhmm. Lot of people, it's just corn on corn on corn. So because England had to be more innovative, I think he he held them in much higher regard than the the Americans that just did it because that's the way it's always been done.

Emily Swihart: 07:18

Yeah. Well and you talk about, like, kinda, like, preparing those relations. Like, they even while there was, you know, the separation happening, there was still an attempt to exchange and to trade plant materials and get seed sourced from different places around the world. Like, our founding fathers did a lot of, trade to travel. You know, we'd go to places and get get seed.

Emily Swihart: 07:42

They would have, colleagues. You know, they would they would correspond with and ask to have, seeds exchanged with them. And so even during, the revolutionary war, there was still some attempts to collect seeds from Europe, as well as other other places around the world. And so, that, I think, also added to the, like, the esteem, you know, of of these gardens, which was, like it wasn't available to everybody. You know, it was kind of a prestigious opportunity to get, you know, all a variety of different seeds, and we'll get into kind of the the different things that Jefferson was growing.

Emily Swihart: 08:20

But, yeah, they were global gardens that they had. So yeah.

Chris Enroth: 08:26

They were. A lot of people would give Washington or Jefferson these unique plants from around the world to gain favor. They knew they liked to be to garden. They liked to farm, and it it was just a a really interesting so, yeah, when we dive into the different plants that they were growing, and they I thought it was interesting. Jefferson really didn't know what to do with them once they were growing.

Chris Enroth: 08:51

He's like, ah, eat them like we eat asparagus was his main recommendation to, like, everyone. He's like, I I will try that first. So that that that that all that gave me a little chuckle. And then maybe also, we we should front distinguish. They really did see a difference between the farm and the garden.

Chris Enroth: 09:17

You know, there were definitely different things that were grown in each spot. On the farm, that was more of your your cereals and your grains, things like that, your haze for forage. The garden was more of that culinary supply of ingredients. And so they're they're both Washington and Jefferson that that I could have gone through, they had records of different types. There was the farm records, and then there was the garden records.

Ken Johnson: 09:48

And I did a lot of my idea with him, like, Jefferson, like and Washington with, like, the the the crops and the vegetables, they did a lot of ornamental planting as well a lot. And, like, we're big native native plant people.

Emily Swihart: 10:05

Others were not, though. I think it was Adams who tolerated it, I think, is what I I would describe it as, like, had it, but he wasn't it like, today, you know, they're humans too. And I think, like, at least to me when I was reading through this, like, this, like, humanizes them a little bit. Like, they were playing in the dirt like we were.

Ken Johnson: 10:28

No. They preferred that over many other political obligations.

Emily Swihart: 10:33

Yes. Yes.

Chris Enroth: 10:35

I think Washington even said, I see my he he saw himself as a farmer first. Yeah. Politician second. Mhmm. And what is his his quote?

Chris Enroth: 10:49

It was towards the end of the revolutionary war. He would write about his retirement. Little did he know he had more work to do, but he would write about retiring under vine and fig, and that that was kind of his dream. And even when he was in Washington DC, he would continually write to his farm managers in Mount Vernon saying he would get weekly updates, like detailed updates from his farm and gardens, at Mount Vernon. So he he spent a lot of time even as president managing Mount Vernon.

Emily Swihart: 11:25

Yeah. And Jefferson did the same. He would he would talk about how, you know, even when he was in, you know, in the White House or, I guess, it wasn't the White House at the time. That's another, I guess, a discussion, the capital. When he was president and away from Monticello, he would be thinking about it is what he would be you know, would articulate in his letters, his correspondence with his family who was taking care of it.

Emily Swihart: 11:51

You know, it was just he would doodle garden plans. You know, you could just tell that their heart was in the garden.

Ken Johnson: 12:02

Well, I think, yeah, Washington Adams, Jefferson were all think toward especially towards the end, just counting down the days until they go back to their to their gardens and garden instead of being president.

Emily Swihart: 12:13

Alright. Should we talk about we did kinda tease. I mean, we could like you said, we could spend a whole episode on every single one of these different landmark gardens, and perhaps we will, you know, dive more into it the future. But we did promise Thomas Jefferson in talking about Monticello. So should we kinda go there?

Emily Swihart: 12:30

We wanna talk a little bit about his just, like, the high level of his farm?

Chris Enroth: 12:38

Yeah. I I think we could do that. And and and maybe give, like, a, like, a synopsis of, you know, when we're talking about Monticello, what what are we talking about here? For people who haven't been there. I mean, it's a mountaintop farm.

Chris Enroth: 12:55

It's in the mountains of Virginia. It's big. And it it's big. I had the acreage for Mount Vernon, but not Monticello. I did write that one.

Emily Swihart: 13:07

Thousand acres is Monticello. Mhmm. Which is a lot.

Chris Enroth: 13:12

It's a lot. Especially when you

Emily Swihart: 13:13

don't have a

Chris Enroth: 13:14

tractor to help. Mhmm. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 13:20

Let me see. The if I can describe kind of what this was, there was there was the mansion on top or the the the home where Jefferson lived on top of the mountain, and then there was a terrace that was built. And then below the terrace, you know, the terrace was the garden. Below that then was a 400 tree orchard. And then on either side of the 400 tree orchard, there were two vineyards.

Chris Enroth: 13:51

And then there were squares of brambles. And all of this was surrounded by a 10 foot tall solid wood fence. The this whole perimeter of this space. I mean, that's insane. That that is one heck of a deer fence.

Emily Swihart: 14:12

Yeah. And I guess I also wonder if that was effective because I know some deer.

Chris Enroth: 14:17

I know a couple deer.

Emily Swihart: 14:19

I know a couple of deer who might might get around that somehow. We get those calls, don't we? Yes. Yeah. Like, a wildly impressive estate.

Emily Swihart: 14:33

And I think, like, the whole thing was intentionally designed, right, like, by Jefferson. Like, he was involved in even the architecture of the building. Like, he was fascinated with, like, architecture, with, you know, plans. Like, he was meticulous, you know, and detail oriented when he was planning things. And so, even, like, the woodland areas, like, where they would kind of fade into you know, blend into the, more constructed, more formal spaces, he talked about, like, what to take out and what to manage.

Emily Swihart: 15:06

You know? Like, he was managing everything. I don't know how a person has time to do that, you know, like, in the planning standpoint. We'll get to how it was getting done and how the work was actually being done without those said tractors, but just meticulous in in how it was laid out. And I wanna talk more about the terrace, but I wanna make sure that we have time to elaborate on some of the other guard or the house plans or anything.

Chris Enroth: 15:36

Well, I and I I just wanna add to that. Like, I was I remember when I learned that Thomas Jefferson was more than just a politician. Like, you know, that's kind of what you learn growing up in, like, school. Like, he's, you know, he's part of the whole drafting of the bill of rights, declaration of independence, you know, and then as president, secretary of state, all that stuff that he did, all that political stuff, farmer, gardener, architect. Like, when I learned what he did, he he designed the that kind of original campus for University of Virginia, the the the library there, the dormitories, and then behind each dormitory, they had their individual, like, gardens that had unique each garden was uniquely designed in a different style.

Chris Enroth: 16:27

Yeah. I mean, I was just like, what how does he have time for all this? I mean, obviously, they didn't have Netflix back then either. So that's just I guess, there was could do that.

Ken Johnson: 16:40

He also developed an improved plow. Mhmm. And didn't patent it. So it was Mhmm. Breed of the

Chris Enroth: 16:45

world. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 16:47

Yeah. Engineer, architect, landscape architect.

Ken Johnson: 16:51

Philosopher. Was he president of the American Philosophical Society or something like that? Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 16:57

I would believe it.

Chris Enroth: 16:59

I did read about the all the patents and stuff in the early part of the country. You know, when you're the patent office and you're just starting to receive, like, patent number one, patent number two, that was a nice thing to be somebody in the power then because you had first review of the the patents coming through there, and they were super, super useful for a agricultural society for back then. So all these new innovative agricultural tools and and kind of processing, milling equipment. Oh, but that's that's a rabbit hole we're not supposed to go down today.

Ken Johnson: 17:42

And before we go back to to Mach Ella, he did also have a another I don't know if it's plantation, another property, Poplar Forest Mhmm. That he inherited from his father-in-law. That was a retreat. So not only did he have 5,000 acres at Mach Ella, but he also had a a retreat elsewhere. I don't I'm not sure how big it was.

Ken Johnson: 17:59

I didn't pursue that rabbit hole very deeply. But

Chris Enroth: 18:07

Yes. He I know you would retreat there every so often, though. Aptly named a retreat.

Emily Swihart: 18:14

That did seem to be common. It's like, what are you retreating from? You have 5,000 acres of just, like, gorgeous landscape, which was one of his favorite places to be. Like, why why is that necessary? Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 18:29

Oh, well. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 18:30

So should we we dive into the terrace, Emily? You you wanna discuss the you know, how this came to be and and what what happened there?

Emily Swihart: 18:41

Yeah. Well, please, and thank you. Like, you you see these pictures. I was like, you'd mentioned, Chris. Like, it's right outside of Monticello.

Emily Swihart: 18:49

Like, it is a prominent feature. There's, like, three terraces that were constructed for the purposes of, growing vegetables, but not necessarily to feed the family. And so, like, that's where I think it gets really interesting for us as educators and as, horticulturists that, like he was a researcher, at this at the farm. And so the terraces are, they are 1,000 feet long, totally constructed. So keep that in mind as I'm throwing out these numbers.

Emily Swihart: 19:23

And I've seen some flexibility in these numbers, and so I don't know if we just can't, like, measure things the same. I don't know where, like, you know, some of the the variability. But, approximately a thousand foot long, and they are approximately 80 to 90 feet wide. I've seen both of those numbers, with the walls being between ten and fifteen feet at the highest point. And so sizable construction projects, and they were done over, a course of three years.

Emily Swihart: 19:56

And even though this was, the idea was conceived by Thomas Jefferson, he did not build them. And we need to, I think, here insert some of the acknowledgments of who was doing the work, both in constructing these these terraces, which stand today, I think, as a reminder of the situation of Monticello was born out of. So slaves. Right? Like Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 20:27

Slavery was used as labor. Enslaved people were used at Monticello for the entirety of Jefferson's life, you know, being there. I was reading different numbers. It said, I think, over 400 enslaved men, women, and children lived and labored at Monticello. And I saw a number where it was six ten, enslaved persons were, owned, and I use that term, you know, with pain, by Thomas Jefferson throughout his life.

Emily Swihart: 21:00

And so it's a very real fact of how this came to be.

Chris Enroth: 21:09

Oh, let me throw in there. To just construct that terrace, it took it was seven slaves, a mule, and a cart. And those seven enslaved hauled 350,000 cubic feet of soil to create that terrace garden. It took multiple years to do that also. I mean, that that's a lot of earth to move.

Chris Enroth: 21:38

You know, we we we talked about these kind of British style of of gardening. Well, the British very known about being gentlemen. So, really, like, Washington, Jefferson, they were kind of coined the term gentleman farmers, which was I get to say what I want, but I don't have to do it. And that is when the enslaved people would come in to play where they didn't have a choice. They had to do what was told of them.

Chris Enroth: 22:09

And they ran these farms, these gardens, and, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of enslaved people were involved in just Monticello and Mount Vernon alone. I I would say well over a thousand, human beings.

Emily Swihart: 22:27

As such, like, on these terraces, I had mentioned that he wasn't growing them primarily for production for his family. So as I was reading all the, you know, all the accounts, it gives you an opportunity to step out of our modern day era where we have refrigeration, where we have, you know, like, all the modern day comforts. And so that was mentioned quite a bit when with in the research where you were growing food you were gonna feed your family with, except in all of Thomas Jefferson's, like, meticulous planning and note taking and detail oriented nature, his gardens were for to to identify what, varieties were superior. So he would grow, and there was a, like, an account where it said, if I grow 100 different species and one, survives that success. Like, it was he wasn't necessarily trying to get, a huge crop out of the terraces.

Emily Swihart: 23:31

He was a breeding program or a selection program, which, I think is fascinating. And he had a lot of different crops, like different species, as well as different varieties on these. And so and took meticulous notes. Can you have the book that we all have? Right?

Emily Swihart: 23:51

You can purchase this book. I don't have it yet. That has the records that he kept for the garden. And this would be a good resource if anybody wants a fourth of July gift for somebody.

Ken Johnson: 24:04

It's Thomas Jefferson's The Garden Book, edited by Edwin Morris Betts. What'd you say, Chris? It came out in the forties originally.

Chris Enroth: 24:13

This Supposed to come out 1943, but there was a little bit of a war that year. So it came out in 1944.

Ken Johnson: 24:20

So, basically, what they did is they took his his garden book records and put them into this. And then, basically, all the letters he wrote are at least ones that are still surviving, that he wrote to people. They went in and put excerpts, from those about, Monticello or or what he was doing, gardening. And it is a 600 plus page book. So but but in here, he's got, like, tables of you know, in 1812, he grew frame peas.

Ken Johnson: 24:55

It was in garden one to five, planted it February 15, came to the table May 22. And some of these include, like, when they stopped producing or if it failed, why they failed, or sometimes it just failed. That's all I put in there, and that one wasn't necessarily grown again. But, yeah, I mean, some of these are in this book five, six pages long, especially the later, kinda after the presidency and stuff when he's kinda there full time. You get get quite a bit of different things going on in the garden.

Chris Enroth: 25:31

You know what I thought was interesting about the garden garden book was usually, each year would start maybe some observation about the winter. Like, it was a really bad winter or it was a mild winter. But all of his, like, garden records, it always starts with peas. It's like peas is kicks off the year. And then he would, like, kinda sometimes he would he would catalog, like, alright.

Chris Enroth: 25:55

And I harvested or last harvest of peas was this date, and then the year kinda almost went silent in his garden journal. I I From reading and everything I saw, he loved garden peas. He loved English peas. He loved it all. He even had a competition every year to see who could get the first crop of peas, and the winner would have to host the losers.

Chris Enroth: 26:19

And I think he it it was said he never won the competition except for one year, but he did not admit to winning because he was afraid he would hurt the pride of one of his best friends who was not a politician. So this was somebody who was outside the the spheres of politics in Washington who he's like, I don't wanna take this away from them, because they're my really good friend, And it's the only person I know that's not a politician, so they're gonna win the pee competition.

Emily Swihart: 26:56

I heard it, described as the pee club. Like, it was, like, his neighbors, and it was, like, a a formal thing. So I really I I thought that was adorable. We do the tomato thing here, but I think it got me thinking we should do it with all of our vegetables. Why not compete with all of all of the garden produce?

Ken Johnson: 27:14

Mhmm. That's the county fair.

Chris Enroth: 27:17

Yes. That's what it brought to mind.

Emily Swihart: 27:20

Ken. Yeah. I'm a bit removed from my county fair. Our four h staff handles it flawlessly.

Ken Johnson: 27:29

I've I've got a judge vegetables tomorrow, so it's on my mind.

Chris Enroth: 27:32

Oh. Are the is this the kind you get to taste and test?

Ken Johnson: 27:39

No. I think it's just they pretty? Are they pretty? Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 27:43

Mhmm.

Ken Johnson: 27:45

I was did you know, talking about growing this stuff experimentally, I came across something in one of the books I was listening to was he grew over 40 types of kidney beans and basically narrowed it down to his two favorites. And that's kinda what he grew and what he recommended. The other ones, yeah, he wasn't about he wasn't about, like, collecting stuff for, like, the sake of collecting and trying to grow the most different types of things. It was purely, I wanna collect all this stuff, and I wanna find out what's the best and what is going to be best for the farmers of the country.

Chris Enroth: 28:21

Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 28:21

Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't precious about, like, the source. Like, that didn't really influence his decision making. In some of those kidney bean trials, he was reading that there were some rare beans obtained through, like, the Lewis and Clark expedition, and those got kicked out because they didn't meet his standards or they weren't the top two.

Emily Swihart: 28:38

And so, yeah, he he was he was ruthless, I think, in his garden trials. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 28:47

But you you must have to be. Otherwise, everything makes it.

Chris Enroth: 28:52

Yes. Yeah. Mhmm. And and, you know, the garden book, it talks about how he even would bud graft peaches and apples onto rootstock. But I guess if if we think about like, he he was also a big tree fruit grower, I guess, we should say.

Chris Enroth: 29:14

You know, he had all those orchards and vineyards. He was also kind of considered, like, the the father of the Virginia wine making industry. It was like the Napa Valley of the colonial times, but you know? Yeah. It was he he was he did so much.

Chris Enroth: 29:33

So you said how many tree fruits he had. Right, Emily? Was it hundreds? Over a 100?

Emily Swihart: 29:40

Yeah. This is one account, and I'm I I think it might be low. But one of the sources that I was looking at said so over, 330 vegetables, but then 38 varieties of peaches, 14 variety of cherry, 12 variety of pear, 27 variety of plum, and 24 variety of grape. And now keep in mind, those are the different varieties, so we would have had multiples of those. So those are just the the types, not the the quantities.

Emily Swihart: 30:14

But that's a lot. It's a lot to track. Yeah. You know?

Ken Johnson: 30:20

When he he grew gooseberries because I came back from Lewis and Clark expedition, so he grew a bunch of those. I think he was, if not the first one, the first people to grow olives in North America. Was almonds was another one. You know, back to vegetables, I think he was largely responsible for popularizing tomatoes. In United States, they were thought to be poisonous, and he grew those and promoted those.

Ken Johnson: 30:47

So a lot a lot of the crops we grow now, you can trace back to to him either being part of introducing it or popularizing it.

Emily Swihart: 31:01

Yeah. And I was looking at so Monticello has a a website, and they have a shop where you can get seeds from supposedly, from what Thomas Jefferson grew, whether it's a direct descendant or the same cultivars or or, varieties. And it was interesting. So first, I was looking through it. I'm like, some of these are very familiar, to us in the home garden.

Emily Swihart: 31:27

So, like, if people go on there, they'll be like, I've been growing that. Like, that's a a familiar, variety. And I was listening to an interview with, one of the persons who helps manages, Monticello's Gardens. They were talking about how it's really difficult to, find some of the vegetable varieties that they have because of, the annual nature of them and the, from the cross pollination that happens. It's like like a true two seed, whatever he would grow, was hard to find.

Emily Swihart: 31:58

And so it was it was, that's the nature of gardening. You know? Like, we wanna be, I think, you know, purist about it. Like, I want, like, a direct descendant from Thomas Jefferson. Some people might.

Emily Swihart: 32:10

I guess I I don't know if I fall in that category. But collectively speaking, like, it would be neat to be able to say this is a direct descendant. It's a little more complicated when you start getting, you know, getting into the botany of it. So, but still, I like the idea of supporting that you know, maintain that part of history, growing some cool stuff in your garden, kind of being connected to the founding fathers, getting some interesting foods out of it. There was one I wanted to try that I kept seeing come up.

Emily Swihart: 32:39

I don't know that I would be able to grow it. It was sea kale. Did you guys see that pop up? Yeah. Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 32:47

So have you do you have any experience with it, or it was this kind of this is new to me. Yeah. Okay. So this is

Ken Johnson: 32:54

an Heard of it, but that's the extent of mine.

Emily Swihart: 32:57

Yeah. So from what I understood, it's an import from Europe. It's one of those ones that we we brought in. But it is a perennial, and it likes to grow in sandy soils. But he would grow it and use it like asparagus.

Emily Swihart: 33:12

Like, Chris, you said, like, just treat it like asparagus. Like, this one, like, they really did grow it like asparagus. You know? And they would use it, like, a kind of as a replacement for kale. And I just it was it kept popping up all over.

Emily Swihart: 33:25

So I'm like, why is this not more you know, why are we not growing this more? But I think it's hard to grow here. So

Chris Enroth: 33:33

They would blanch it too. They they would because in in nature, the sand would blow up on it and blanch the stems, but so you'd have to get, like, clay pots or something to

Emily Swihart: 33:41

Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 33:42

Blanch the stems artificially.

Emily Swihart: 33:44

Yes. Early in the season, and then you would you would uncover it to grow as the temperatures warmed up. But yeah. Maybe that's a grow along thing next year.

Ken Johnson: 34:00

See how big the seeds are.

Emily Swihart: 34:02

Oh, yes. Yes.

Chris Enroth: 34:04

Yeah. We'll see if we get them through the mail.

Emily Swihart: 34:07

Yep. Yeah. Yep. Any other interesting you know, like, he grew a lot of lettuces. There was one that I'd saw, that one of his favorites was called tennis ball lettuce.

Emily Swihart: 34:20

Mhmm. And I thought that was I wanna see if I can find the seeds for that one. Kind of a small lettuce that he said it had superior flavor. So that one's available. That seed was recovered from, the National Seed Storage Laboratory, at Fort Collins.

Emily Swihart: 34:38

And so they, I the woman that I was listening to the interview with, Monticello, was telling an interesting story of how they grew it. Like, it's, like, precious seed, you know, like, from the seed storage labs. They only got a little bit, and then they tried it. And they're like, this is the best lettuce we've had. So everybody tried it, and they overate it.

Emily Swihart: 34:57

So then they had to get more seed to grow at Monticello. And so now they're managing it a little better. But it was just so good. They couldn't resist. And, like, I'm not a huge salad person.

Emily Swihart: 35:08

I like a good salad, but it's not like I don't often crave one. Like, lettuce isn't usually my go to for salads anyways. So I'm interested to see if, you know, if it is so good that it converts me. So plus

Ken Johnson: 35:24

oh, go ahead.

Emily Swihart: 35:25

Oh, I was gonna say plus, like, tennis ball lettuce, like, sounds just adorable. And I do believe plants are adorable, so we should just get that out there.

Chris Enroth: 35:34

I'm just imagining a little, tennis ball head of lettuce. Yeah. But Jefferson, he he really didn't like meat. So he he said meat was a condiment to his salads. Like, he he did not he he was not a very big meat eater.

Chris Enroth: 35:54

He really loved eating from the vegetable garden. Like, there was a passion and that I and I think he also suffered from some digestive health issues. You know, he tried to remedy that with mint teas and and and other things that he would, you know, try to concoct from the garden, but he was as close to a vegetarian as I think as you get those days. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 36:17

I saw I saw that too. I liked that description. Use it as a condiment to your vegetables. So

Chris Enroth: 36:23

Mhmm. I mean, yeah, if when you're saying your weekly kind of habits, your your your weekly kind of process am I trying to how am I trying to say this? Every week, every Monday, you're supposed to plant lettuce seed.

Emily Swihart: 36:39

Oh,

Chris Enroth: 36:40

yeah. Like, that that was his like like, this is a rule that we have to follow. Every Monday from February 1 to September 1, we are planting a thimble full of lettuce lettuce seed. And, you know, they would even have some of those overwintering lettuces back then. Think I saw the tennis ball one.

Chris Enroth: 37:00

The overwintering lettuce is called brown Dutch lettuce

Emily Swihart: 37:03

Mhmm.

Chris Enroth: 37:04

Which I'm like, I wonder how that tasted. Maybe we would need a little bit of meat condiment for that one. But that that was I I want probably the tennis ball one would be the more flavorful. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 37:19

Only one way to find out.

Chris Enroth: 37:20

Grow it.

Ken Johnson: 37:22

Yes.

Emily Swihart: 37:22

Yeah. Yeah. I love that, little rule of thumb, like, little practice, you know, of just planting a thimble full of lettuce. Everybody get your thimbles out. You know, that's every when everybody's, you know, junk drawer at home.

Emily Swihart: 37:35

But I was I was like, that's that's a lot of salads. But they do they did use lettuce, like, in other ways that we don't always use now. Like, I heard, you know, one explanation is, like, would boil it because of that bitter taste that it can get in the heat of the summer. They would boil lettuce, which I'm like, okay. I mean, we could try it once.

Emily Swihart: 37:55

But when you don't have refrigeration, when you don't you know, like, we have a global food market right now. Totally different scenario. And so yeah. Every Monday, guys, I have to check-in, see if we planted our thin bowl of lettuce. There would also be things in the salads too.

Emily Swihart: 38:15

Like, we've we've leaned heavy on the lettuce, but I heard there were things like endive and kale and arugula, and then with beans. There was a lot we've mentioned it already before, but, like cow peas, asparagus beans, flava, fava beans. So there was protein in his diet, you know, and there was there was other textures and flavors. But

Chris Enroth: 38:36

Then medicine. Before there were before the tomato was there, it was all about the turnips. Right? Like, that was the tomato of the seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds, early eighteen hundreds. But it it was yeah.

Chris Enroth: 38:50

He he did convince folks that the what is it? Tomato quickens the blood in the summer months. I don't know what that means, but sounds great. So then they allowed the them to adopt it. Because it it was interesting.

Chris Enroth: 39:05

Like, tomato, there are a lot of these crops. They're they're native to The Americas, readily adopted by Mediterranean cultures, you know, other other European cultures also. But those British folks, they did they refused to eat tomatoes. Like and that kind of bled into the American colonies a little bit until Jefferson's like, no. No.

Chris Enroth: 39:28

It's good. We should all be eating this too quick on our blood in the summer.

Emily Swihart: 39:34

And now it's the most popular garden plant.

Chris Enroth: 39:37

Yep. It was replaced the turnip, thankfully. So I've had

Emily Swihart: 39:41

some Although you're a big fan of turnip. You got

Ken Johnson: 39:43

me a I will

Chris Enroth: 39:44

yeah. I I will say turnips can be pretty tasty. Yep. One thing I'll just throw in there in terms of, like, what was being grown, you know, giving a glimpse of of, like, maybe gardens in those days, turnips being a staple crop. Jefferson didn't I mean, he documented the weather.

Chris Enroth: 40:09

He documented what was planted and and harvest. He didn't really document care and not usually always, like, quantity pulled out of the garden. And so they they say they got a lot of information about maybe what they actually ate based upon Jefferson's granddaughters who would write down the recipes of what was being cooked in the kitchen at that time. And it it was it was interesting. Some of the things in the recipes, you know, that called for quantities that that couldn't be produced maybe by his trial garden.

Chris Enroth: 40:45

And so they learned that, you know, there was a whole little economy going on there at Monticello where he would purchase excess crops from his enslaved folks because they would also have gardens at their respective, you know, where they where they lived there in Monticello. And they would grow more than they needed for storage and everything, but also knowing that Jefferson wouldn't have enough food coming out of the trial garden to supply his needs. So there was a I I don't know how it worked, but they did say that he would purchase crops from the enslaved folks there to make things like turnips and cheese, which I think was like a macaroni and cheese type product. They made gumbo, which had patty pan squash, lima beans, tomatoes, potatoes, and okra. And this it it was really interesting, this kind of what was happening in the kitchen there because Jefferson was secretary of state at France for years.

Chris Enroth: 41:45

And so he, you know, would learn from French chefs, and his enslaved would also be there learning from French chefs. And so they then they came back to The Americas. And, you know, many of the enslaved that were working in the kitchens were French trained chefs. Like, that the the the level of culinary stuff going on there just kinda I think it's very impressive with all those ingredients going in there. They were blending Creole, you know, European, African.

Chris Enroth: 42:17

Like, it was the the recipes that you see written down by these granddaughters, there's a lot of interesting stuff going on.

Emily Swihart: 42:25

Have you made any of them?

Chris Enroth: 42:28

No. I mean, have I made okra based kind of gumbo? Yeah. Have I made macaroni and cheese? Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 42:35

Should I try turnips and cheese? Maybe. I think you just need to get, like, a one of those mincer, ricer things to, like, kinda do, like, a mashed potato effect. Throw some cheese in it. I'll give it a try.

Emily Swihart: 42:50

I think it could be good. Mhmm. Enough cheese on anything. No. Now I'm now I'm revealing.

Ken Johnson: 42:58

Drizzle some cheese on it and be done with it.

Chris Enroth: 43:02

Oh oh, and one more piece of lore, the french fry has said to have been introduced by Thomas Jefferson. That is not likely to be true. It is likely it was introduced by a French chef, which trained his enslaved kitchen staff to make french fries.

Emily Swihart: 43:23

Well, whoever gave us them, thank you. Yep.

Ken Johnson: 43:30

So I one last thing that I came across that was kind of interesting for the the terrace gardens anyway. Like, when he was they would lay out the guard vegetable garden, he'd kinda group his plants by the parts he awaits or the fruit. He ate those fruit leaves and roots, so grouped all the the fruiting vegetables, together, all the ones you're eating the leaves, so your lettuce and your, kale and spinach and all that stuff, and then your root crops. So these kind of distinct sections in those garden for those different crops.

Emily Swihart: 44:00

I ran across that too. I think that's just that's a fun way of doing it. I I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it, but it got me thinking about the rotations, you know, and how that would work with plant families. I started having some more questions because that's not a traditional way that we do it, but it sure would make it easy to go out and harvest. You could send send anybody out to harvest.

Ken Johnson: 44:22

You know, you mentioned he didn't talk there's not a lot of information on how he cared for this stuff. I did come across something where people talked about how overgrown his garden look a lot of times, so there wasn't necessarily it wasn't nice and weeded. It sounded like like there wasn't necessarily the the utmost upkeep on his gardens sometimes, at least from a few accounts that I came across.

Emily Swihart: 44:53

Okay. That makes me feel better.

Chris Enroth: 44:56

Me too, especially this year with all the rain we've

Emily Swihart: 44:59

had. Yes.

Chris Enroth: 45:03

I I think it was the person's name was Wormley Hughes. He was an enslaved, and he did note that Jefferson worked a lot in the garden. I don't mean to say he maintained or cared for it or weeded it. He was just out there tinkering in the garden. And if you've I do this all the time.

Chris Enroth: 45:23

I could spend a whole day working in the garden and stand back as, like, I don't think I did anything. And so I that's kind of what it sounds like. Jefferson was just a person just playing maybe in the garden, like, just being in the garden, enjoying it, trying plants, probably writing stuff down, writing letters. Yeah. So I think it he was out there, maybe not weeding as aggressively as some.

Ken Johnson: 45:49

He would inspect the gardens. And that's another thing, not necessarily specifically Jefferson or the Founding Fathers, but a lot of times so something that, like, your your gentleman farmers, you know, whatever you want, plantation owners, their work in the garden was maybe putting the seeds in the ground, but all the more manual labor was enslaved or indentured servants or the hired work. It wasn't the the owners doing it necessarily. Sometimes it was. I think you came across stuff like George Washington would frequently go out and help plant and dig holes and stuff, but not always the case.

Emily Swihart: 46:26

Okay. Was we covered a lot with his growing and his his endeavors there. He lived a very long life. Should we talk about kind of, like, how he passed? Because you've got an interesting story about that, Chris.

Emily Swihart: 46:42

We wanna just mention in case anybody comes across it. But then kinda, you know, Monticello in the after in the aftermath of his life. So do you wanna talk about how how he didn't die? Spoiler alert.

Chris Enroth: 46:57

Right. Yes. The way the story goes and and I think this was maybe even told back then tongue in cheek, kind of like, oh, can you believe this is how it happened? One day, Jefferson was out in the garden, and he ate a cucumber. And it is said that he fell ill, like, right after that.

Chris Enroth: 47:19

He went. He laid down in bed. He was bedridden. This was on July 1, and three days later, he passed away. And people said, he was killed by a cucumber.

Chris Enroth: 47:30

But we know today that's not true. Also, if you did the math, he died on July 4. Very I I would say ironic. I mean, I coincidental, but interesting that he died on July 4, same date as The United States kind of what we call it as a birthday celebration of declaration of independence. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 47:57

So but but, Emily, you found out there's more medical information here than just a cucumber killed him.

Emily Swihart: 48:07

Yes. Yeah. So this is from Monticello, their website. Essentially, I like, he was 83. Let me double check.

Emily Swihart: 48:17

Was 83 at the time of his death. And so in the later years of his life, he had been kinda plagued with a variety of different, medical ailments, and this is all before germ theory. You know, there was, kind of rudimentary treatments for different, ailments, including mineral baths. They used, for some of his different ointments or, ailments, I'm gonna kinda summarize that he would, he had some, like, skin lesions. Some infections was one of the ailments that he suffered from.

Emily Swihart: 48:56

To treat that, they used a combination of sulfur and mercury ointment. And so then he kinda got mercury poisoning. Even though it worked, it did help with the with the, skin infections. That that was then another subsequent, health challenge that he had with the mercury, poisoning. Other ailments that he experienced included, like, swollen legs, painful joints, fatigue, a fractured rest left wrist, a boil on his jaw, increasing deafness, and unspecified illnesses.

Emily Swihart: 49:30

And so just kind of, like, in in failing health, you know, over the last couple of years of his life. What finally kind of, did him in after all these different bouts of, of illness was probably an infection of the kidneys. So he had had some, blockages of the urethra, and they used, some catheters, like rudimentary catheters, to unblock that, which then would introduce bacteria. And so, they do believe that kidneys, his that kidney failure ended up causing his death, which is not from a cucumber. But, you know, it like, living to be 83 is quite a significant feat in those days.

Ken Johnson: 50:26

That's impressive in modern times.

Emily Swihart: 50:28

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Mhmm. And, Chris, you had said he he died on the July 4.

Emily Swihart: 50:32

It was fifty years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Like so there's just like, there's some real synergy is not the word either for for what all happened there, but, like, this writing the declaration of independence, signing it on the July 4, and passing fifty years later on the day is

Chris Enroth: 50:56

something that just John Adams. Right? Mhmm. Same day.

Emily Swihart: 51:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Enroth: 51:02

Whose last words were Jefferson lives was what John Adams said. He didn't know, though. He didn't know what was happening with Thomas at that time.

Emily Swihart: 51:13

Conspiracy theorists can go ahead and dive down. I which I saw some, like, some links to, and I was like, I'm good. But it was, you know, like, what you know, those two kind of feuded in life, and then they made up, and they were not in the same location, but they were both founding fathers in the July 4. You know, there's you can make something there if you want.

Ken Johnson: 51:32

Yep.

Emily Swihart: 51:33

I don't want. But

Chris Enroth: 51:36

Coming soon to theaters, National Treasure five.

Emily Swihart: 51:38

There you go. Should we cast it? Who do you think we should have everybody play?

Chris Enroth: 51:46

Oh, that'd be that would be a fun game. It's gonna all revolve around a turnip, though, I think.

Emily Swihart: 51:55

That looks like George Washington.

Chris Enroth: 51:57

Yes. But but is it?

Emily Swihart: 52:00

Is it?

Chris Enroth: 52:01

Was he trying to tell us something?

Emily Swihart: 52:03

Mhmm. Alright.

Chris Enroth: 52:06

Okay. We're we're we're going off the rails. I I guess,

Ken Johnson: 52:12

I don't know,

Chris Enroth: 52:13

I have so much more in my notes. Should we do a section of founding fathers fun facts? Do you guys have maybe a couple bullet points we just wanna rattle off here?

Ken Johnson: 52:26

You're in Finding Fathers in general, or are we sticking to Thomas Jefferson?

Chris Enroth: 52:30

That's a good question. Whatever you got.

Ken Johnson: 52:34

I got lots. Can

Emily Swihart: 52:37

we stick to Thomas Jefferson? Let's stick to OTJ. Took mine.

Chris Enroth: 52:41

Sorry.

Emily Swihart: 52:42

You blew them during the Oh, great. I can't help it.

Chris Enroth: 52:48

I just can't help it.

Emily Swihart: 52:51

So I'll just learn learn from you two because all of mine were shared.

Chris Enroth: 52:56

Shoot, Ken.

Ken Johnson: 52:59

Well, see here. So when Thomas Jefferson was in England, we would go on garden tours throughout the English countryside. You do this with John Adams. So a lot of his ideas may have come, for sure, inspired, by some of these places. What else do I have?

Ken Johnson: 53:20

There's one where he was in France. He took a trip to Italy to get upland rice because he had had that in France. And it was growing in Italy, so he went to Italy, I guess, you know, the mountains on a mule or something. I don't know if that's actually true, but that's what I came across. And collected rice, you know, sewed it into his clothing because it was punishable by punishable by death if he were found smuggling it out.

Ken Johnson: 53:44

So he got it outside of South Carolina so he they could grow upland rice there. I don't think it was very successful there, but it was there was some success in Kentucky and Georgia, growing that upland rice there. So that was interesting. And then once he was back in, I think he said that was as important as as the declaration of independence to him was introducing that upland rice into The United States. Another thing, I think when he was back in in The US, he and was it James Madison?

Ken Johnson: 54:23

Went on a tour, of New York. He came across a lot of sugar maples and wanted to, increase sugar maple. People plan more sugar maples for sugar production so they could get rid of their reliance on the British for sugarcane. So he was pushing sugar maples, which were not successful in Montello because it is too hot for sugar maples there. They did did push that.

Ken Johnson: 54:55

I got lots more about you. One more. I guess on and did come up you know, he studied crop rotation and came up with an eight year rotation. The book I saw was looking at did not say what it was, but he did seek advice from George Washington and James Madison who were I think George Washington was really big on on crop rotation. He was kind of an expert on that in in The United States, somebody to consult them.

Ken Johnson: 55:20

He came up with year an eight with an eight year rotation for his fields.

Chris Enroth: 55:27

So he, yes, he very much advocated for crop rotation, and but he kept planting his peas in the same spot. That's what I read. Like, his peas would go in the same spot every year.

Ken Johnson: 55:42

Exception to the rule.

Chris Enroth: 55:43

This is one exception. He something about peas in in old Thomas Jefferson. Yeah. I I did misspeak as I'm rereading through my notes. Wormley Hughes was not the one who said Thomas Jefferson was the person he was active in the garden.

Chris Enroth: 55:59

That the person who said that was another enslaved. His name was Isaac Jefferson. He said that when he was freed. Wormley Hughes was the enslaved person referenced by Thomas Jefferson in the garden book as Monticello's head gardener. And so that's that's where I got those names mixed up.

Chris Enroth: 56:23

I I have a few I have a few quotes, that I liked that he said. One is, the failure of one thing is repaired by the success of another. I like that. So it is the idea of let's plant a little bit extra in the garden because we don't expect it all to maybe succeed. And then another one was, although I am an old man, I am a young gardener.

Chris Enroth: 56:53

I really like that quote as well. I'm starting to feel my back as I age, and so I I wanna do more as a young gardener, but I my back is saying you shouldn't. Let's see. I

Emily Swihart: 57:10

found a quote. I'll while you're looking, Chris, I'll fill him up. This kinda, like, speaks to him, and I think other founding fathers, like you mentioned earlier, kinda how they were, like, reluctant leaders, you know, and and looking to get out of the presidency. And he said, never did a prisoner released from his chains feel such a relief as I shall on shaking off the shackles of power? That's a pretty strong statement about how he felt about being president.

Emily Swihart: 57:40

And so I think you can see why he spent so much time back in his garden afterwards.

Chris Enroth: 57:48

Yeah. I did also find a few notes about what he he really liked. I mean, he liked peas. The he liked he liked a lot of garden crops. But particularly when it comes to tomatoes, they grew, varieties of Casto de ludo genovese or genovese.

Chris Enroth: 58:07

That was one tomato type that they were known to grow back in Thomas Jefferson's day. The other one was purple calabash, and I think purple calabash is still grown to this day at Monticello. And so that interesting. He he also we we talked about sea kale. Salisophy was another favorite, and he really liked West Indian gherkin cucumbers pickled.

Chris Enroth: 58:36

And he liked them so much, he would have them pickled and sent to the White House, and that's what they would dine on at the the White House. They would feed that to people from around the world as they would visit him. He he did do wine. He also did do a couple other things, some ales and some ciders. In 1814, he hired a brewmaster that made a Monticello ale specific for Monticello, and that recipe is lost to time.

Chris Enroth: 59:05

I don't think anybody wrote that one down. And he thought olive oil was was manna from heaven. That's why he pursued olive trees. It's really tough to grow olives outside of a Mediterranean climate. I know Virginia is maybe a little warmer, but not quite.

Chris Enroth: 59:32

And then, you know, some people ask, like, did he people from all the world gave him plants. Did he ever get plants from, like, Native Americans? You know, Ken talked about he he got several from Lewis and Clark, but there's no records of him getting, like, plants directly from Native American people. But he did adopt a lot of the growing techniques with, squash, other than cucurbits. And so he would do a lot of the hilling, which was a popular native American gardening technique, something that he adopted.

Chris Enroth: 01:00:03

And then so some of those techniques, he saw and and used those in the garden. But no known record of him, like, actually, like, receiving something from a Native American seed. He he did grow a lot of native plants, though.

Ken Johnson: 01:00:22

A lot of ornamentals, which we didn't really talk about, but that was a big thing too. Like, the whole approach to to the house was planned with with trees and shrubberies. You know, hide the views and frame the views and and this, that, and the other.

Emily Swihart: 01:00:42

All around plant enthusiast.

Ken Johnson: 01:00:45

Mhmm.

Emily Swihart: 01:00:46

We know the type.

Chris Enroth: 01:00:50

But do you guys did you, like do you, like, see the, like, the thread, though, of, like, the founding fathers, the desire for agriculture as, like, a foundational component of a country going up through Lincoln, establishing the land grant universities, the Morrill Act, the land grant Smith Lever Act, extension us here today. Am I am I am I really spooling that thread a little thin, or I don't know. What do you think? Is there is there a connection? I would hope.

Emily Swihart: 01:01:26

Ken, you go. You be our our philosopher first.

Ken Johnson: 01:01:28

I don't know. Well, maybe. Could be. Possibly. Yeah.

Ken Johnson: 01:01:36

Yeah. A lot of them. I mean, not say not all of the, you know, the founding fathers were necessarily, you know, gardeners or agriculture is the base. You know? Hamilton was more the the commercial, which led to a big rift and all that.

Ken Johnson: 01:01:56

But I don't think I heard that in Hamilton or not. We got a we got a movie to watch.

Emily Swihart: 01:02:02

Not much.

Ken Johnson: 01:02:04

But I mean, yeah, like like we mentioned in the beginning, a lot of them, yeah, that was the that that's the foundation of the country is farmers and and agriculture. Yeah.

Emily Swihart: 01:02:15

You joke about Hamilton. For those that weren't part of our prerecording meeting, only one of us has watched Hamilton, the musical. And so, no. With, like, all of this, I think there is a a through line kind of always with our founding fathers. To me, what what struck me was, like, they all were concerned about the success of the country.

Emily Swihart: 01:02:41

Their priority list was just in a different order, you know, for each of them. And so for, you know, Washington and Jefferson, like, feeding people, being self sufficient, being nourished was a top priority. And I think it continues. You know? Like, we still you know, we talk about grocery prices, and we talk about international trade, and we talk about, you you know, know, agriculture, an agricultural society.

Emily Swihart: 01:03:10

Like, it feeding people and and gardening at some level, agronomy, you know, at different levels is essential. And so I I I guess I feel a little silly being surprised that was a huge part of the conversation, at the founding of our nation. It just doesn't come up, you know, when we talk about the declaration of independence or the revolutionary war, you know, and all the, you know, the financial system being developed and where the capital was gonna be. Like, all of these, like, big decisions were being made, and one of them was how do we support the people that are now, you know, a rift with the place that was supporting us? And so yeah.

Emily Swihart: 01:03:53

And that has been a constant that's a constant conversation. How do we feed our society? So I think Chris, I see where you saw the line. I'm with you.

Chris Enroth: 01:04:06

Excellent. Well, as three people who live in the very agriculturally related industry, like regions of the country, we definitely feel it. So Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was a lot of great information about our founding fathers.

Chris Enroth: 01:04:26

Specifically, we did a a kind of focused on Thomas Jefferson in Monticello and his work there. Well, the Good Growing podcast production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by Emily Swihart Emily, thanks so much for hanging out. And and even though it was my my harebrained idea, you you brought it home. So thank you to talk about a very big topic today.

Emily Swihart: 01:04:51

Oh, no. I appreciate it. And it's it was a huge topic. You're right. Like, wow.

Emily Swihart: 01:04:56

Let's let's tone it down a few few more weeks here. Really thankful, though, for finding these resources. This is fun. Like, we don't we sometimes look at the traditional, you know, practices or applicable gardening things, like, you know, history feeds into what we do today. So I appreciate you being creative, and and happy July 4, everybody.

Emily Swihart: 01:05:16

Happy Independence Day.

Chris Enroth: 01:05:19

And thank you Ken very much, for for bringing the thunder, the garden book, the big old 600 page beast.

Ken Johnson: 01:05:28

One of these days I'll get through it. Any thank you, Chris and Emily. I think yeah. People are interested in more of this. Let us know what we can do, deep dives on the other Founding Fathers if if that is of interest to people.

Ken Johnson: 01:05:46

Let's do this again next week.

Chris Enroth: 01:05:50

Oh, we shall do this again next week. There'll be a garden bite coming your way the next few weeks. We're gonna be busy tending to our own personal gardens. And I feel a little inspired. Maybe I'm going to document this a little bit better.

Chris Enroth: 01:06:03

Write stuff down, like because that it's kind of important, helpful, at least, I'd say. So a few Garden Bites coming your way. And just wanna wish everybody happy fourth of July. Happy two hundred and fifty years for United States Of America. Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best, and that is listening or if you watch this on YouTube watching.

Chris Enroth: 01:06:24

And as always, keep on growing.