Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today. We are headed over across the Mississippi River into Missouri to talk about plant diagnosis and figure out what's wrong with all of our plants. But you know, I'm not doing this by myself. I am joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville.
Chris Enroth: 00:30Hey, Ken.
Ken Johnson: 00:32Hello, Chris. Did you go to Missouri frequently as a child living right there?
Chris Enroth: 00:37Well, I lived in Quincy and both of my sisters went to MU. So well, one went to Columbia College and then one went to MU. And then one went got her master's at Columbia at MU. So I was in Missouri all the time, constantly. And one of my children is born in Missouri.
Chris Enroth: 00:55So you know what? We we we claim the state. How about yourself, mister Chicago?
Ken Johnson: 01:03Growing up in Chicago, had, you know, couple of times, had family down on the Illinois side of Saint Louis. So... We, on occasion, we'll make it across the river, getting cheap gas if nothing else.
Chris Enroth: 01:16Exactly. The... And living right on the river where I was, that was... You always drove to Missouri to get the cheaper gas and the fireworks, of course. Oh, well, let's bring on maybe our our Iowan, person here and ask her if she's ever been to Missouri.
Chris Enroth: 01:33So we are also, as always, joined by horticulture educator Emily Swihart in Milan, Illinois. Hey, Emily.
Emily Swihart: 01:39Hi, guys. Yeah, I've been to Missouri. So I've actually been to all 50 states, so we can just get that out of the way right here. Like I've been to all of these states and it was okay. Chris is applauding.
Emily Swihart: 01:52I'm going to go ahead and give credit where credit's due. That was my parents' responsibility or credit. I was a kid along for the ride, except for Alaska. That one I went to on my own. They took us around the country, it was a fantastic childhood.
Emily Swihart: 02:07But Missouri has a special place in my heart. We would go to St. Louis quite a bit, when we didn't have the opportunity. Summer got busier or whatnot, when we had a shorter trip, it was always down to St. Louis and through Missouri.
Emily Swihart: 02:22So I really do take the kids back to the St. Louis area, and I know that that's not where our guest is from. Big fan of actually Kansas City, Missouri and St. Louis, Missouri. Both sides of the state.
Emily Swihart: 02:37Is the Kate Trail the one that goes all the way through? Katie Trail, thank you. Yeah, the Katie Trail, that's a bike trail goes all the way through the state. So that's on the bucket list. Yeah, been to Thanks for asking.
Chris Enroth: 02:55And we're maybe we're setting the bar low because the states we visited so far, they've been right next to Illinois for the most part. So, you know, Iowa, Missouri, that's easy for us to check off the list. So when we when we get to that Alaska, that's gonna be a tough one. So so... Yes.
Emily Swihart: 03:13But... Okay. But I don't wanna discount those states, though. There's, like, some fantastic things happening Midwest. And so, like, we're not being disparaging against those states.
Emily Swihart: 03:23Illinois has got amazing things. Iowa, you know, Indiana, Missouri, all of the ones around us. Even though they're close, doesn't mean they're less than. And so
Chris Enroth: 03:32It's true.
Emily Swihart: 03:33Throw that out there.
Chris Enroth: 03:35Yeah. Yeah. Well, as we can keep talking about her state, maybe we should introduce Kate Kamler. So let's bring her on here so she can defend, Missouri here, or or or maybe help us with with place placing certain parts like the Katy Trail. So Kate Kamler, you are a field specialist in horticulture, and you are located in St.
Chris Enroth: 03:57Genevieve, Missouri, which is also St. Genevieve County. So welcome to Good Growing.
Kate Kammler: 04:03Thank you for having me.
Chris Enroth: 04:06Well, are happy to have you. And I guess let's let's kick this off. Kate, have you ever been to Missouri before? Sure. Have you ever been to Illinois?
Chris Enroth: 04:16There's the question. Yes.
Kate Kammler: 04:18Actually, I have a strong connection with Illinois. While I was born and raised in Missouri, both sets of my parents are from Illinois. And, actually, my master's degree is from Southern Illinois University. And still go across the river quite often. Nice to have a new bridge at Chester now, since this summer, so that makes a huge difference and much nicer to travel across.
Kate Kammler: 04:45We do have a ferry here in Saint Genevieve, but sometimes it's a little tricky to catch the ferry at the right time when I'm roaming.
Chris Enroth: 04:56Yes, well and so just to orient everyone, Saint Genevieve that's in you're right across the river pretty much in I Southern Illinois,
Kate Kammler: 05:05am. Saint Genevieve is on the Mississippi and my office I can look across. I've got a great view. I'm on a hill just a little west of town and I can look across the river to Illinois and of course Kaskaskia Island is right here a chunk out of my county is Kaskaskia Island so the Ellen part of Illinois that's on the Missouri side of the river. So I have done farm visits on Kaskaskia Island too.
Chris Enroth: 05:36Well excellent excellent and and also you said Southern Illinois, are we talking Carbondale here? I'm assuming so.
Kate Kammler: 05:42Yes. Carbondale.
Chris Enroth: 05:43Awesome. Well, you did your master's work there. So in what years with that? I'm trying to lock in who would have been around that period of time.
Kate Kammler: 05:52So Alan Walters he's still there.
Chris Enroth: 05:55Yes, Doctor Walters. Oh yeah.
Kate Kammler: 05:57Pumpkin research.
Chris Enroth: 06:04Vegetable production class and that was that was a lot of fun. Learned a lot and he took us out on the farm quite a bit. Yeah. So I and I think also it would be a good idea, Kate, could you just tell us a little bit about your role as a field specialist there in Missouri? Tell us a bit about what you do.
Kate Kammler: 06:24Sure, so in Missouri with Extension, we're regional specialists. I'm horticulture, that's horticulture of homeowner, commercial, whatever walks through the door, you know, part of that entomology and different things that you never knew you were getting into. So I cover seven counties in the East Central Region, and so lots of phone calls and emails, particularly for those further away counties, try to program there. Luckily, Zoom has made things a little easier on some of those faraway counties. So there's a lot of diversity, so here in St.
Kate Kammler: 07:19Genevieve County on the Mississippi we've got crop fields, row crop farms, then you get about halfway through my county and you're in the Ozarks, so, it changes pretty rapidly. Some of my northern counties are on the Missouri River, so, still row crop ground and then also very hilly, and some are pretty row crops are not a thing at all. They're more livestock production as far as agriculture grows goes.
Chris Enroth: 07:53Wow, I thought four counties was rough. I'm not gonna
Kate Kammler: 07:58complain I've got coworkers that have more counties than that so I'm not complaining about my seven so.
Chris Enroth: 08:05Yeah, yeah, well that is a good span of geography there. And a pretty picturesque part of Missouri. I think I've been in that area before. Actually, my wife's roommate was from Cape Girardeau. We would go across the river and then venture into Missouri when we were in college a couple of times.
Chris Enroth: 08:25Yeah, it's a beautiful part of the state.
Kate Kammler: 08:27Yes.
Chris Enroth: 08:28Well, Kate, we have a slew of questions for you to maybe walk us through the steps of plant diagnosis. And so Ken, would you mind kicking us off this week, please?
Ken Johnson: 08:42I would love to. So I think one thing we talk about plant diagnosis, is IDing the plants. So why is it important to properly identify the plants in question when we're doing this?
Kate Kammler: 08:55I would say, you know, one of the number one questions that comes into my office is what's wrong with my plant? So first off we've got to know what plant is it. There are so many different plants out there and pictures are very helpful, plant samples are very helpful if I'm going to try to ID it if they don't know what it is and sometimes that is the case the client doesn't know what the plant is. So identifying it can really narrow down the list of possible problems, whether, you know if it's an apple or pear tree and they say they've got dying branches most likely on even on the phone I could figure out well you probably have fire blight, but some things are more involved but having that plant identification makes it a lot easier to have a direction to go in to figure out what's wrong.
Chris Enroth: 09:56Yeah I I get that a lot because I do a lot of turf grass stuff for Illinois and it I mean most people grass is grass you know what you know whatever not a big deal but if you really have someone who's passionate about their lawn and they want to spray something, then we got to know what species we're dealing with because that can help us narrow the the pathogens that can attack that particular species. So I always ask for those annoying questions like can you send me a close-up picture of the the plant, the leaves, how it attaches to the stem, we need to know if it has an auricle or a membranous sheath. Yes, I feel that that email diagnostics questions there.
Kate Kammler: 10:43And now I know who I'm sending my turf grass questions to because that's probably my least favorite.
Chris Enroth: 10:49Gotta go. I... I'm... Gotta go. Bye.
Chris Enroth: 10:54Yeah. They're not fun, but we gotta do them anyway, guess.
Ken Johnson: 10:59And, like, one thing for me, like, ornamental plants, you start getting into those cultivars, and this is supposed to... What what exactly is this supposed to look like to begin with?
Kate Kammler: 11:09Yes. Right. Is it supposed to be lime green or or not?
Emily Swihart: 11:16You talk about having pictures and really good high quality pictures. Really appreciate when someone takes the time and they almost apologize for sending so many pictures. I'm like, No! That's great! Best case scenario, send me 20 pictures of something.
Emily Swihart: 11:33Instead of that one kind of blurry, or far off photo, or no photos. They're like, I have a plant that is you know they start describing it and I'm like this is my least favorite game to play is guess the plant without a picture. I'll
Kate Kammler: 11:48Or you see my can picture and the soil behind it is in perfect focus but the plant is not.
Emily Swihart: 11:55Yes. Yeah. To everyone who's done that, we'll do our best to help. It does help us help you if you are sending in those high quality pictures.
Kate Kammler: 12:07And the other reality is, I'll also tell people, particularly if it's far off counties, take a sample to the local office and they can send me pictures if you don't have the ability and we still have lots of people that still don't have, smartphones pictures or they have a picture on their phone but don't know how to send it. So, we work around it, figure out those pictures really make a huge difference.
Emily Swihart: 12:40Yep, absolutely. So once we've identified it, whether it's the pictures or conversations or bringing a plant sample in, we know what species is, now what do we do?
Kate Kammler: 12:53So then I get to play 20 questions. Start asking questions. What's going on? When did you notice that something was wrong? Is it spots?
Kate Kammler: 13:04Is it damage? Is part of the plant gone? Is part of the plant dead? So asking those questions, when did you notice? What's been happening in your lawn?
Kate Kammler: 13:18Oh did you have construction go through? They Or were laying that fiber line through my yard and dug a trench. So those things that you may not think are important, so it's trying to tease out, and sometimes some people are more willing to share than others. But the more information you can provide, and the more you think about what's been going on, it's easier to start figuring out what the problem is.
Emily Swihart: 13:53Yeah, this is definitely the place where we like when people overshare about their landscape. Although
Kate Kammler: 13:59a lot of times I feel bad for my secretary when they overshare with her before she can say, Can I transfer you?
Chris Enroth: 14:07Yes.
Emily Swihart: 14:10Yeah. No, that's when you need to bring a little chocolate in or something for them.
Ken Johnson: 14:14Yes. Yeah. Well,
Chris Enroth: 14:19Kate, it seems like people are are a big part of the equation here. I I I mean, I guess, you know, if these problems happen in the forest and no one was around to look at it, no one would care. But because people are there and they they they care, maybe sometimes they care a little bit too much. You know, what other questions are you asking them to try to maybe elicit the like, how are you caring for this plant? Like without saying you're killing it, you know, so how do you go about that whole people thing?
Kate Kammler: 14:52Sure, so sometimes we're our own worst enemy and we love our plants to death, so it's also figuring out well do you have an irrigation system or are you watering? You know we're in drought conditions right now so, some of my first questions are are you watering? How are you watering? Are you watering a little bit every day? Are you watering deeply once a week?
Kate Kammler: 15:18Those watering practices make a difference. Have you fertilized? Have you sprayed it with anything? Just trying to, Oh, looks sick. Maybe I should spray it.
Kate Kammler: 15:31What have you sprayed it with? Without knowing exactly what the problem might be. All of those things that as I talked about construction or different things around it, was it hit with a lawn mower? All of those random things. Were the deer chewing on it?
Kate Kammler: 15:52Here were the armadillos digging it up? So so, you know, sometimes it's not just us, it's also what animals are around and different things too but asking all of those questions to kind of figure out okay well maybe you watered too much or didn't water enough or didn't a little bit every day was not the right watering practice.
Emily Swihart: 16:21Can I interrupt and take us on a tangent? You said the armadillos are digging them up?
Kate Kammler: 16:26I'm horrible. Armadillos here have been horrible. I would like to ship them all across the river, please. And now that we're in drought conditions, it seems that they're even worse digging things up. So if I water something in my flower bed, they're like, Oh, there might be insects in there.
Kate Kammler: 16:47Let me dig that spot. So I'm walking a fine balancing line here at home if I water something and consider that, am I to be dug up tomorrow when I get up in the morning? So yeah, I encourage all armadillos to play on the highway.
Ken Johnson: 17:11Okay.
Kate Kammler: 17:13Well that's only enemy is cars really.
Emily Swihart: 17:18Okay, okay. I appreciate you explaining that. I live up north here and I- we have seen an armadillo as roadkill. It was like, gosh, was a few years ago and it was surprising. They're not- they are not a pest up here.
Emily Swihart: 17:38So that was- okay. You surprised me. Didn't... I mean, I appreciate that. Ken and Chris, have you guys seen?
Ken Johnson: 17:47I don't know they've got them in Southern Illinois. Did I
Kate Kammler: 17:50hear Yep.
Ken Johnson: 17:50They've seen them as far north as Springfield, maybe? Somewhere in such Illinois that they've made their way up.
Chris Enroth: 17:57We... We've had a confirmed road kill one, like, twenty minutes to the southwest of here, like, by Carthage, like, a confirmed picture and everything. Yeah. So Kate, what are we in for? It sounds like they're coming.
Chris Enroth: 18:15What what I guess was this Armadillo? Eventually,
Kate Kammler: 18:21I know just lots of digging. Sometimes it looks like you have feral hogs instead of armadillos. The other challenge with armadillos is that their eyesight's poor and their hearing is poor, its sense of smell, so you can walk right up to one. And the reaction if they get startled is to jump, which is why they get killed on the highway. They hit grills when they're sniffing on the highway.
Kate Kammler: 18:54So, they're after insects, and, they dig to get those and are very good at digging. Right now, they've been working on some stumps in my yard. I'm fine with that if they just stick to the stumps and dig those out but one year it was a dry year and I planted some new daylilies and I replanted them like three times because they would dig them up. Now when I look at that flower bed, I'm like, oh yeah, that's why all the colors are all mixed up is because I had to replant them numerous times.
Emily Swihart: 19:29Oh my goodness, I've just learned so much about an animal I did not expect to learn about today. And I'm sure there's more to learn about what... Oh my. Okay. Do you...
Emily Swihart: 19:39Sorry. I'm I'm taking this on tangents. For these northern folks here that are listening, do you also have feral hogs?
Kate Kammler: 19:49Luckily not not in my counties some of my further West counties they've been working on eradicating some of them so in the Ozark Counties, you know, the Hilly and rough terrain forested areas. So yes, that has also been an issue in some areas.
Emily Swihart: 20:10Oh, I'm sorry to hear that While also being thankful we are not yet dealing with that. It makes me feel bad for being so whiny about some of our squirrel pests.
Chris Enroth: 20:23Darn squirrels.
Emily Swihart: 20:24The squirrels and those rabbits. We just have hogs and armadillos. I'll stop whining as much.
Kate Kammler: 20:34It's all about perspective all the time. It
Emily Swihart: 20:37totally is. It totally is. Well, my god. Okay. Thank you for that Tien tin.
Emily Swihart: 20:40That I enjoyed that, but we can get back to previously scheduled questions, but I had to. I had to ask.
Chris Enroth: 20:50And maybe... Oh, go ahead, Kate.
Kate Kammler: 20:52The funny thing is that that was one that I never would have dreamed I got get asked questions about is how to trap armadillos and get armadillos. So luckily our Missouri Department of Conservation also has some really good guides on trapping armadillos and all of that too. But yeah one of those questions that you don't expect what's digging holes in my yard most likely it's an armadillo.
Chris Enroth: 21:23Well just maybe to draw us back into Plant Diagnosis and kind of just a tail end thing here on people. It sounds like, Kate, you're in a similar boat as us, is that it is tough to get out to do in person site visits. But I found them very valuable, because very often what they report on the phone or the things they take pictures and emails, that's the problem that they're seeing. But it's not necessarily maybe not the cause. I don't know do you find value in those site visits when you can do them?
Kate Kammler: 22:00Sure because as you said there's a lot of things people don't necessarily notice that I would notice and also it gives you context of the surrounding area. Oh they were just reporting damage to this tree, but when I start looking their whole shrubbery, all of this, was it herbicide drift? It, you know, when they were just concerned about the tree, but when I start looking I might notice there's a lot more damage or something else going on.
Ken Johnson: 22:32I think sometimes people know they may have messed up, and they don't want to admit it. So it's hard to draw that information out of them.
Kate Kammler: 22:40It is. Alright.
Ken Johnson: 22:44So in addition to, I guess, us loving our plants to death, are there any other things we talked about, you know, drought and stuff, are there any other environmental factors we need to consider when diagnosing problems?
Kate Kammler: 22:56Sure. So, you know, we we mentioned drought, but we can also be too wet. We have an area at the edge of town here that it's a sinkhole area that doesn't drain, and it might have two feet of water sitting in it when we've had heavy rainfalls. And there was a little home orchard in that and they're like, Well what's wrong? Well, fruit trees aren't made to sit in flood water.
Kate Kammler: 23:28So site selection and where we put things is sometimes also our fault that we've set things up for failure and that orchard, little home orchard is no longer there because it did not survive the floodwaters. Also thinking about lightning strikes, hail damage, diagnosed hail damage on commercial stuff quite a bit on those random pop up storms that hit and we get hail. And of course, spring and fall freezes. This year, for example, March we had 90 degrees and later that week we had 15 degrees. That weather roller coaster is hard on plants.
Kate Kammler: 24:21It's also humidity. We're in the Midwest, we're hot and humid. That means we're dealing with more plant diseases. So thinking about our environmental conditions, and I also tell people here hills and valleys, are you on a hilltop? Are you down in a valley?
Kate Kammler: 24:39That's also going to play a role on what your weather conditions are.
Emily Swihart: 24:43Yeah and I think I guess I would say so we had a podcast couple oh gosh, couple weeks ago about the changing climate. I think the point you make about the short term, what's happening on the site can affect plant health immediately. But there's that long game of what did happen behind us. We sometimes forget. I think, know Kate, do this as well as the three of us, helping remind people that that could still be affecting plants.
Emily Swihart: 25:12Even last year, we had drought conditions last year and we're still, especially for those really long lived plants, are still kind of suffering from some of the effects of that or recovering or showing those lasting effects.
Kate Kammler: 25:29And I tell people particularly, well one, everybody gets very attached to their trees and they've really seen a lot of stresses weather wise and people forget that if they're long term they've seen all of those stresses. The Easter freeze of two thousand and seven that did lots of damage, the drought in 2012, all of those things that if you're not in agriculture necessarily that you kind of forget about after it's over it's done right? But those are still stresses that add up particularly on those perennial plants.
Emily Swihart: 26:10Yep. Can you talk about it's kind of another aspect of the landscape that I think that it is hard for the layperson sometimes to fully appreciate, which is soil quality and soil health. Can you talk about how that sometimes goes into diagnostics and of figuring out or sleuthing what's going on with our plants?
Kate Kammler: 26:30Sure, and I don't know if you guys have been experiencing this. We have a soil lab on campus, so we send in lots of soils and my name and phone numbers on the bottom of my seven counties worth so I get a lot of calls about soil test results and it's been an interesting trend that we've been seeing that people will take a soil test when something's going wrong with their plants which is legit I will recommend that always. Well have you taken a soil test? What are you fertilizing? What's going on there?
Kate Kammler: 27:07And we've seen a lot of results recently that are kind of off the charts on phosphorus and potassium. And then I start asking more questions and it's a raised bed mix and their plants aren't growing. So it's not a little is good, more is better situation. Also I tell people fertilizer is expensive, so knowing what you need as far as doing that soil test before planting, you've got an established planting, still do a soil test every few years to see where you're at and what you might need, what's changed. Soil pH is a huge one.
Kate Kammler: 27:49In my area traditionally we have low pH, so five isn't unusual. However, I also am in a unique area where we have a lot of limestone quarries and limestone production for ag use, so sometimes it's like I'll get a soil test and the pH is eight. Well they know somebody or they work at the lime kiln and they bring home free lime and just add more all the time. Those aren't easy problems to fix once we get too much. Doing that soil test first and figuring out that and then we can go from there.
Kate Kammler: 28:42So sometimes it's also doing that soil test and eliminating that as being an issue to what's affecting the plant.
Chris Enroth: 28:50Yeah I have encountered this actually there was just earlier this year someone came to me with a soil pH of like 8.7 and I was like what are you doing? What's what's happening here? I said well I don't add anything. I do compost, I do manure and I do my wood ash and I said woah woah woah what'd you say? He said wood ash.
Chris Enroth: 29:16I put my all my I have a wood burning stove I put every all my wood ash on there and like oh wood ash is highly alkaline. He says, well, I've been doing this for like ten years. Like, okay, that explains why you can't grow anything in your vegetable garden anymore. That thank goodness for soil testing. Yeah, I mean, it can really help answer a lot of questions.
Kate Kammler: 29:39And speaking of wood ash, used to be when I got those soil tests, I'm like, oh you apply wood ash, don't you? And they're like, how do you know?
Ken Johnson: 29:47Yes.
Kate Kammler: 29:47And nowadays it's, did you purchase a raised bed mix or is this in a raised bed? So it just seems like those mixes are coming out really high in P and K and we're really struggling with a lot of those.
Chris Enroth: 30:04Yeah. And I've even seen lawn companies. They're all of all the shrubs and the trees. They'll start getting chlorotic. And so they they did a soil test and they saw that phosphorus level off the chart.
Chris Enroth: 30:19And they're like it's only our long term customers that it so they're like it's something that we're doing. I'm like well how long term? They're like well a couple like a decade or more. It's like oh so you've been putting twenty twenty twenty on this lawn for multiple times a year for over a decade. And you're wondering why the phosphorus level is so high, which winds up actually harming your broadleaf plants because it blocks the uptake of metals.
Chris Enroth: 30:44So yes, test those soils. It can reveal a lot. And I guess too, Kate, though, it doesn't always help. Sometimes it's like, well, I'm not learning anything from the soil test. Let's keep moving on.
Kate Kammler: 30:58And and sometimes it's okay. You're good. As a coworker told me one time, he says, I tell them they have a water only garden. They don't need to add anything more, and, they're good on nutrients. So, then we move on to to other thoughts.
Kate Kammler: 31:16Okay. What what's going on otherwise that might be an issue? And a lot of times it does go back to weather conditions. We still think that plants should be perfect even though we're not comfortable out in those weather conditions or all of that. We forget that they struggle with those conditions too.
Chris Enroth: 31:41All the Illinois folks just clocked that phrase. You have a water only garden.
Kate Kammler: 31:45Water only garden. Yep. I I guess I should give co, credit to my coworker Rusty Lee who who, is the one that that coined that phrase.
Chris Enroth: 31:58It's a good one.
Emily Swihart: 31:59Another shirt idea.
Ken Johnson: 32:01Well,
Chris Enroth: 32:05I guess, Kate, when we're at the end of the the diagnostic process here, people are always said, okay, that's what it is. Now what do we do? Like, so I guess how to, and this might also be a few additional questions, but I guess first off in Missouri, you know what is your typical recommendation to folks once you have a diagnosis of what is happening?
Kate Kammler: 32:34So a lot of it is what does the homeowner want to do? Are they willing to spend money on it? How valuable is that plant to them? So you know as I mentioned trees, we get very attached to trees, but the reality is that when we finally discover that there's a problem with that tree there's not really a whole lot we can do about it. Even if it was insect damage or something like that and they wanted to to spray to get rid of the insects who's got a sprayer that's going to reach the top and cover a tree and doing that in a neighborhood logistics make a lot of that hard and expensive.
Kate Kammler: 33:22So some of it is okay can you handle it Some of it got defoliated this year from insects and next year most likely not going to be an issue. What's you know if that was great grandpa's tree we might be a little more willing to do something about it. And you know some are just cosmetic issues that oh you know it wasn't, it looks rough now, but next year it's going to be fine or it's going to send out some new branches here and and we're going to be good. So then it becomes well was it an insect? Is it a disease problem?
Kate Kammler: 34:07What, are there some other options that aren't pesticides? And a lot of that is talking with a client and walking through the steps and what they are wanting to do because you know some of our clients absolutely not spraying anything and some are like yes give me all my options and a lot of times it is it's giving them options. They get to choose what they do with those options and how they go about it. So I'm here to give advice on that and they get to choose but it's always kind of walking through the integrated pest management steps with them and going through those and figuring out what works for their situation.
Emily Swihart: 34:53Yeah, well, and I guess I'll say also, like we're talking about this through the lens of this has been determined that it's a challenge. And you had mentioned kind of like determining what level of tolerance we can have for it. Is it just a cosmetic? Is it so minor that it doesn't maybe warrant any sort of treatment? Even once you've identified something, maybe it's undesirable, but it hasn't reached a certain threshold, either determined by the homeowner or the impact of it.
Emily Swihart: 35:25It's maybe not threatening the life of these desirable plants. It's just a short term issue or seasonal issue that we can deal with through other management strategies. We're not jumping to chemicals. I appreciate you talking about that.
Kate Kammler: 35:40And something else that makes a difference too, is that a homeowner client their recommendations are going to be different than my commercial client that is relying on this harvesting this crop for his livelihood. Know It's very different what you might want to do there as far as that goes.
Emily Swihart: 36:02And have available as options for treatment. What do you want to do and what do you have to pick from? What's on your pick list of options? The other thing I always get questions about oaks, primarily.
Kate Kammler: 36:21It's always like, is it oak wilt?
Emily Swihart: 36:23Luckily, most of the time it's no, although sometimes it does, you know, we have to do some further investigation. Galls, because they're so famous for having all sorts of galls on them. What is happening, and how do I treat it? Are kind of like questions that come at me together. Like, this is the oak, what is it, and how do I get rid of it?
Emily Swihart: 36:47So then that's an educational opportunity, to talk about, well, this is natural. This is part of the natural processes. And I think, and maybe you can speak to this too, in Missouri, the native plant movement has just taken off, And so we have so many people being aware and actively participating in planting native plants, but that habitat building accompanies some critters, some chewing, some damage. That's one of the diagnoses that we could have. Have you seen an uptick in that or have you had opportunities to educate folks
Kate Kammler: 37:26about There's always interest in native plants. You know, and I think some of that interest has changed some over the years I've been in the job too because I think sometimes people are realizing that when you plant native plants, you've got to be aware of what you're planting. It's still not a maintenance free garden and choosing which native plants you put in your landscape, so choose wisely and figure out what your goal is for your landscape too if you're using native plants. I have quite a few native plants in my landscape and some are that I didn't put there either that have come in and you know sometimes it's also figuring out what your goal is. Did you plant milkweed for the monarchs and then suddenly realize that you planted a plant to get eaten?
Kate Kammler: 38:32So you know, oh I didn't get any blooms. Well your plant stems because it served its purpose and the monarch caterpillars ate it. So it's figuring out what your goals are and right plant, right place. Yeah, lots of interest in natives, but do your research first and, find out what works for your situation.
Chris Enroth: 38:59Well, can can I just say speaking of goals, I think you've achieved one of mine. So, Courtney, what I read about you, you have a lot of a lot of experience. You've you've done a lot of different things in the world of horticulture, but I'm reading that you grow over 200 different types of pumpkin squash and gourds in your home garden. That's a one heck of a goal. Can we can we just touch on that a little bit?
Chris Enroth: 39:23Because I barely have enough room for three, let alone 200. So can you describe this 200, plus, situation?
Kate Kammler: 39:35Sure. So my garden spots about 40 by 60, so not big. So you know it's a few seeds of each kind and then I see what I get. And the reality is that this year I did not plant any because we were chatting earlier that do as I say not as I do crop rotation for pumpkins is very important however I only have the one spot that there is sun and a spot to put them. So I have planted there for probably fifteen plus years.
Kate Kammler: 40:14So last two years were crop failures. Partially my fault because I was traveling and doing different things when I needed to be practicing some weed control and insect control and those things. So this year I planted cover crops. I do have some volunteer gourds that came out back. There's always some, but it's always my stress reliever in a lot of ways to go home and look and see, oh, what's growing now?
Kate Kammler: 40:48Whether that's in the pumpkin patch or in my landscape and seeing enjoy the insects too and different things like that. Unfortunately no pumpkins this year, but I do work with some commercial growers so I do get to you to, dabble in some pumpkins still.
Chris Enroth: 41:09Missouri has a great fact sheet so for speaking of people that don't want to spray or reluctant to when dealing with things like squash vine borer or I think maybe even squash bug, there's a fact sheet about planting blue Hubbard squash at the ends of rows, which I have given out to a lot of people. And that that's based in that fact sheet was based in Missouri so it's been valuable information over here as well.
Kate Kammler: 41:35Good yeah, Lincoln University, our partner Extension University has has some great guides on those trap cropping for that for sure.
Ken Johnson: 41:46Good.
Chris Enroth: 41:48I get one last diagnostic question, I guess, Kate, kind of in the vein of that handing out that handout about blue Hubbard squash. Nobody ever calls me back to say their plants are doing great. Do you ever get sad that nobody tells you like, hey, just calling to let you know my plants are great. Everything's just fine. All we get are the questions of like, what's wrong with my plant?
Kate Kammler: 42:13Yeah, no, very rarely. Although I sometimes get comments years down the road, oh, I did practice my fruit tree spray schedule and I actually got a crop of apples. So I did have one lady bring me some apples one year so that was nice, but a lot of times no we we don't necessarily hear about, oh yes that was successful or nope I did lose my plant Kind of like you said I was going to.
Chris Enroth: 42:45Essentially, we're all lousy at plant shopping, think. Don't take us to a nursery.
Emily Swihart: 42:53All right. Kate, before we wrap up and we warned you and everybody hold on, we will get to soup talk here. But before we move on, I do want to ask, is there anything we haven't covered that you want to make sure that we do cover today?
Kate Kammler: 43:08So I would say one last statement is that some plants die no matter what you do. So, just like you and I, plants have a lifespan, so that reality is there. I use that in particular for trees because sometimes we get confused that we think trees will live forever. We can't take them to to a hospital and give them antibiotic and make them better. So that's the reality that they have lifespans and if you plant the right plant right plant in the right place you're going to be better off and hopefully that plant will have a long and healthy life.
Emily Swihart: 43:53Yeah, I appreciate that. And I have always, at least I tell my husband, this is an opportunity. If we lose a plant, we've created an opportunity to try something else. And so then we head to that garden center there, Chris, and overspend. But that's a discussion for another day.
Ken Johnson: 44:14Yep.
Kate Kammler: 44:15Yeah, my plant wish list always grows for some reason.
Emily Swihart: 44:20There's always new fun ones to try and we're learning new techniques
Kate Kammler: 44:24that we
Emily Swihart: 44:25need to try out. Yeah.
Kate Kammler: 44:27And that's how we learn to help our clients better.
Emily Swihart: 44:30Yeah. Yes.
Chris Enroth: 44:32What I tell my boss.
Ken Johnson: 44:33Yep. Tell my wife. Yes.
Emily Swihart: 44:40And I'm sure that she has bought that hook, line, and sinker. Well, okay. So as promised, it is time for the the now famous soup talk.
Chris Enroth: 44:56A podcast gently nestled within another podcast. Just Time for soup talk.
Ken Johnson: 45:01In there. Time
Chris Enroth: 45:02for We soup need a jiggle. Anyway, yeah, we need something. Something should play right there. Yeah. Lots of lots of glitter and sound effects.
Chris Enroth: 45:11I'm sure. Okay, so today on soup talk. I we had an interesting comment online that soup exists on a spectrum. Think I'm saying that incorrectly, but but that's the gist of the comment. Emily, what is soup?
Emily Swihart: 45:32Okay, I'm glad you asked Chris. Yes, that comment got me thinking. We have a dictionary we could go to to get some guidance. And we've been talking about soup for a couple weeks now, so I think it might be time to define it. Here are the three definitions offered by the Merriam Webster dictionary: It is a liquid food, especially with a meat, fish, or vegetable stock as the base, and often containing pieces of solid food.
Emily Swihart: 46:01Pretty clinical, but sounds like soup.
Chris Enroth: 46:05Sounds kind of gross.
Emily Swihart: 46:07Kind of. Makes soup sound yucky. I know. Moving on. Number two: It is something such as a heavy fog or nitroglycerin having or suggesting the consistency or nutrient qualities of a soup.
Emily Swihart: 46:23Number three is: And this one threw me and I want some help figuring this out. Or culturing me, I guess is probably more of what's going to happen. Which is that it is an unfortunate predicament. And the example that is given says, that stunt landed her in the soup. I've never heard soup used in that way.
Ken Johnson: 46:51I feel like that's something from like the nineteen forties. Yes.
Emily Swihart: 46:56Have you heard it, though? Is it, like, hanging on?
Ken Johnson: 47:01I've never used... I've never heard it referenced in day to day conversation.
Emily Swihart: 47:07No. No. Kate, have you... Like, this... I'm just like, I don't
Kate Kammler: 47:13My guess would be it's... They've landed in a mess, you know, because soup is a a bunch of stuff put together. I I don't know. That's my guess. But, yeah, not one I've heard anybody use either.
Kate Kammler: 47:26Okay.
Chris Enroth: 47:27We... Can we... We should bring it back. What There you go.
Emily Swihart: 47:31Should we we bring it back?
Chris Enroth: 47:34Tate did this podcast and landed right in the soup.
Emily Swihart: 47:41It does make me think... So my my mom, and she doesn't listen to this, so she'll be okay with me sharing it. The other day at Frosted, and we were driving down her driveway in the fields. There were, I'll just say no pumpkins in sight, Kate you'll appreciate this. She randomly says, Oh there's frost on the pumpkins!
Emily Swihart: 48:02And I go, What pumpkins? I was so confused and apparently that is a saying that I am unfamiliar with as well. I don't know if it's just in her family, but I guess I have a lot of sayings to learn. I'm feeling like there's a lot I don't know.
Kate Kammler: 48:17Well that one, there's actually a poem involved with Frost on the Pumpkins. So I think it was by an Indiana poet, so you'll have to look up that. Yeah, that is one I have heard.
Emily Swihart: 48:31Okay. That I'm thrilled about, and I will have to look that up.
Chris Enroth: 48:35Do you have a favorite soup, Kate? Anything to go to routinely?
Kate Kammler: 48:39Well, sure. I mean, pumpkin, of course. There are pumpkin and squash soups, so so that's what I'm gonna say.
Chris Enroth: 48:47Excellent. Very timely also.
Kate Kammler: 48:49That's right.
Emily Swihart: 48:52Chris, do you have a favorite? We've mentioned chili a lot on here. Is that your favorite? And Ken, I'll ask you the same thing. Or do we have a favorite?
Chris Enroth: 49:04It depends. The classic extension answer.
Ken Johnson: 49:11I mean, I guess by your definition, chili isn't soup.
Emily Swihart: 49:20It's not watery. How how liquidy is
Ken Johnson: 49:22it? It's not liquidy. Gross.
Emily Swihart: 49:29We're back to being gross. Okay.
Chris Enroth: 49:33I I I do. I like to make, things that have like a, like a vegetable component that has like leafy greens. We do a lot of we when we used to do more kale, kind of off kale, but we used to do like kale soups, know, with some sausages or something like that. And they're pretty darn good. And with if you use a spicy sausage, it's really good in the wintertime when it's cold outside.
Emily Swihart: 50:02Okay, we'll accept that answer. Very good. I'll say my family, we explored a colleague, introduced us to it, and it has become a favorite in our family, which is cheeseburger soup. So we can have the cheeseburgers in the summer, and then we can go ahead and have the cheeseburger soup in the winter. It's kind of a broth base.
Emily Swihart: 50:22I do make it thicker, so maybe it spans that line of being actual soup, or just like mushy casserole. I don't know. But it's... Cheeseburger soup is what we'll be making this week in our in our house. It's been requested.
Ken Johnson: 50:38So... Yeah. Very good.
Chris Enroth: 50:43And we lost Ken.
Kate Kammler: 50:44We did.
Chris Enroth: 50:44He'll he'll be back. So we should close it out because his his internet's probably sounds like it's getting getting worse down there. So well, that was a lot of great information about the process that we go through very commonly at Extension of diagnosing plant problems. And so these are steps that if you're listening, watching us, you can do this also at home. And if you need guidance, that's why Extension is here.
Chris Enroth: 51:12So thank you for you for watching and listening. The Good Growing podcast production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by Emily Swihart. Kate, thanks so much for hanging out with us today and walking us through these steps of plant diagnosis. If anything, I'll just share this with folks when I'm trying to diagnose their plant problem and they can kind of go through the outline here and figure out what I need. So thank you very much.
Kate Kammler: 51:40Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it.
Chris Enroth: 51:44And Emily, thanks so much for defining soup, pinnacles episode of Soup Talk this week and also for being with us as always every single week.
Emily Swihart: 51:57Oh, it's my pleasure. Yes, Kate, thank you so much for joining us from Missouri. Great information. We do this nearly daily with Extension and it's really important to help folks kind of see, you know, how they can go through and you get more familiar with the plants in your landscape as you go through this process. And so, really appreciate your wisdom and your time for joining us on GoodGrowing.
Kate Kammler: 52:21Thank you.
Chris Enroth: 52:23And Ken, thanks for being here as always every single week. And for, know, again, thanks Ken. Couldn't do this without you.
Ken Johnson: 52:35Well, thank you, Chris. I I think, Kate, a lot of good information there. I think I think people, the more you do it, easier it gets. Just keep that in mind. And, Emily, thank you as well.
Ken Johnson: 52:47And, Chris, Emily, let's do this again next week.
Chris Enroth: 52:51Oh, we shall do this again next week. We are... We're gonna leave Missouri, and we're gonna travel down to Georgia to learn all about the Vidalia onion. Why do we have to go to Georgia? Well, you'll find out.
Chris Enroth: 53:01Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best, and that is listening. Or if you watched us on YouTube, watch it. And as always, keep on growing.