Navigating native plants and municipal codes with Brodie Dunn

Abigail Garofalo: 00:06

Welcome to another episode of the Everyday Environment Podcast, where we explore the environment we see every day. I'm your host, Abigail Garofalo.

Amy Lefringhouse: 00:14

And I'm your cohost, Amy Lefringhouse.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:17

And today, we are here with Brodie Dunn, extension outreach associate for wildlife and pollinators with University of Illinois Extension, and he is here to chat all about municipal codes and native gardens. Welcome, Brodie.

Brodie Dunn: 00:30

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:31

Yippee, Brodie. Longtime listener, longtime fan of the pod. Brodie, you are also a fellow podcaster within the Illinois Extension Network. If y'all were around for our wildlife season, you heard the wildlife sounds episode. That one was so good.

Abigail Garofalo: 00:47

I had so much fun editing that episode with all the wildlife sounds. And now you're back here to talk about on our nature based solutions season in which, you know, a lot of the answer to a lot of our native nature based solutions is native plants and plantings and and putting things in the ground. But, uh-oh, there's not just us who gets to decide what goes in the ground. And so I'm excited to dig into this. This is a topic I frequent with being a a person who lives in the suburbs, and Brodie's been helping me out over the years with it.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:18

So thank you so much, Brodie, for just being here and pulling out of your podcast to be with our podcast.

Brodie Dunn: 01:23

Always a pleasure. I gotta plug two projects, guys.

Abigail Garofalo: 01:26

Yeah. Tell us about your work with Extension and and plug whatever projects you wanna plug.

Brodie Dunn: 01:31

Yes. You know, I do work on pollinators and biodiversity. And then two of the projects I'm working on, of course, voice of the wild. You know, that's our our radio show and podcast. It's about wildlife sound identification, and the premise of the show for folks who haven't listened before is that if you learn to listen for wildlife, you'll hear it everywhere.

Brodie Dunn: 01:51

It's all around us. And you can learn more about voice of the wild at go.illinois.edu/vow if you're interested. And the the second project that I've been working on was Illinois Wild Side. It's a blog about wildlife and our interactions with nature and ecology. I run that with the other friend of the show, doctor Joy O'Keefe, who is, you know, not only as listeners will know, awesome to to, you know, listen to and talk with and stuff.

Brodie Dunn: 02:17

She's also a great writer, so I have a lot of fun working with her to to edit those blogs. And so, yeah, that those are the two projects I wanted to plug.

Amy Lefringhouse: 02:24

I'm fangirling again with you, Brodie, because once you listen to Voice of the Wild too, you feel more relaxed, and you're, like, in tune with your senses, and you're listening. And just like you said, you you hear wildlife hear things all around you. And it's just a it's just a great tool to slow down and just get in tune with nature. So thanks for bringing that project to us.

Brodie Dunn: 02:48

You're making me blush, Amy.

Abigail Garofalo: 02:51

Well, I was just saying to plug the wild side blog, that blog does a really cool job at looking at, like, human interactions and interfaces with wildlife that are practical. And so that's definitely it's like right up extensions wheelhouse in that sense, but it's a it's a corner of Illinois Extension that hasn't been explored that really Illinois residents really need that content. And so you and Joy have been working really hard on that project and getting some really great content up there. So check both those out. We'll link them in the show notes, and I'll also link the Listening to Illinois Wildlife podcast that we did two seasons ago for our listeners who are like, oh, I want more Brodie.

Amy Lefringhouse: 03:28

So, Brodie, you started out in your blog that pairs with this podcast with a legal disclaimer, which we don't see very often in our blogs here with Everyday Environment. So we'd like you to tell us, you know, why you had to do that.

Brodie Dunn: 03:46

Yeah. So in this blog, I ask readers to read their town's municipal code, this document that sort of dictates a lot of the things that you can do in your city. And, you know, read it, write it down, write down all these little codes that that matter to your residential landscaping projects. And you kinda have to to picture this in your mind. The this person, this hypothetical reader has has read these codes.

Brodie Dunn: 04:12

They've written them all down on a piece of paper, and they look at the piece of paper and they go, Interesting. And then they walk out of their house and they go out onto their porch, and they look right down the road. And they turn their head, and they look left down the road. And they look back at the piece of paper, and they go, well, no one on this road is compliant with our municipal code. So if the law doesn't apply to them, then it must not apply to me.

Brodie Dunn: 04:39

And that's wrong. Don't do that. And for reasons that we'll get into

Abigail Garofalo: 04:42

Don't later do that. Just

Brodie Dunn: 04:44

Yeah. And we'll get into the the reasons why later. But the reason I have to put in a legal disclaimer in here is is because we're dealing with this weird and kind of uncomfortable space where residential landscaping codes are often super strict. And, basically, anything I tell you would be illegal somewhere. I I I'm also I mean, I have to say that none of this is legal advice.

Brodie Dunn: 05:10

Don't break the law, and I'm not only not your lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, period. I have no legal training. And, you know, to be frank, some of the codes that that are out there are really strict, and, you know, they may be enforced really well. And your only option if you want to put native plants in might end up being that you have to talk with your neighbors and get together and talk to your city council to to change the ordinance.

Brodie Dunn: 05:33

So that that's the disclaimer that that we gotta put out in the blog and and right here in the audio too.

Abigail Garofalo: 05:39

Yeah. You don't we don't have to start it. I like that it's, like, right at the top with you, though, because it could have been me being like, heads up, listeners, right at the top. So we're talking all about municipal code. We got this legal disclaimer.

Abigail Garofalo: 05:52

I'm assuming municipal code has something to do with the law. What what is it? Do you have to follow it? Why should I care about it?

Brodie Dunn: 05:59

Yeah. So municipal code is a document, usually called a code of ordinances that your your city makes. Usually, your city council is the one that's in charge of it. This is a legal document that dictates everything from, like, what kind of establishment can serve a hot dog to, like, where you can put your garbage bins. This includes, regulations about how to hand how the how the city handles storm water infrastructure, things about, developers, where they're allowed to build in the city, what they're allowed to build, things like zoning, what constitutes a health hazard.

Brodie Dunn: 06:35

And amongst all this tangle of of legal code is residential landscaping requirements for your house. And you do have to follow it. It is a legal document, and then it is legally enforceable.

Abigail Garofalo: 06:47

So, like, highly serious, large infrastructure building project codes to, like, what I physically plant in my yard.

Brodie Dunn: 06:55

Yes.

Abigail Garofalo: 06:56

Yes. That's wild. That's huge. And so I'm very familiar with this concept because I live in a suburb. Right?

Abigail Garofalo: 07:03

I feel like suburbs are very familiar with, like, municipal code. Is this something that's, like, statewide in Illinois? Like, is Amy worried about municipal code in her area?

Brodie Dunn: 07:13

I think Amy probably only has county code. That that's correct. Right? You live out way out in the country. Right, Amy?

Amy Lefringhouse: 07:19

Well, I correction. I I used to live in the country. Yes. And where I grew up was kind of out it's just in a county with the county code. I do live in a city now, so I do have to follow a municipal code now.

Brodie Dunn: 07:34

Gotcha. So, I mean, if you live way out in the country, then, like, you generally don't have to worry. You know, as Amy is talking to me, like, you don't have to worry about it a whole lot. You'll still have some code to follow, but, like, out in the country, I I have to imagine. I've actually not read a a, you know, a county code.

Brodie Dunn: 07:49

I have to imagine that that restriction is, like, you can't grow corn within 12 feet of the middle of the road or something like that. Mhmm. So I this is more applicable to folks who are living either in a city or in a suburb or or just somewhere where there's quite a few people and you've got lots of neighbors.

Abigail Garofalo: 08:06

And this is different than a homeowners association code. Right? Like, help me out with that.

Brodie Dunn: 08:12

Correct. Yeah. So municipal like, this is specifically powers of the state kind of thing, not homeowners associations, which also have power. Like, they that's this isn't to say you can ignore your homeowners association code because they I mean, that's a document that you sign also or, I guess, an agreement, something like that. But it is different from your homeowner homeowners association.

Brodie Dunn: 08:33

This is has to do with the you know, it's led by a city council or a village council or something like that.

Amy Lefringhouse: 08:38

Mhmm. So where you know, I moved into town. I don't know how many years ago now, but I will tell you the truth. I've I've looked at the municipal code before based on some folks that have called into the extension office one time. Prior to that, I had not, you know, even looked at it before.

Amy Lefringhouse: 09:03

So where can folks find their city's municipal code?

Brodie Dunn: 09:07

It's almost every city has it posted online somewhere. I've never encountered a city that doesn't have it posted online. Usually, this is a they they use a service called Municode. Sometimes it's on American Legal Publishing or something like that. But it it's online.

Brodie Dunn: 09:26

If it's not online, then I I don't know. You have to go to your

Abigail Garofalo: 09:29

Call Brodie. No. Just kidding.

Brodie Dunn: 09:30

Yeah. Yeah. Call me. I'll figure it out. It it's probably at the very least, it's gonna be at your city your city's primary building, whatever that is.

Brodie Dunn: 09:38

Sure. Because they have to provide it make it available to the public.

Abigail Garofalo: 09:42

Mhmm. And that like, yeah. I think what is it? Chicago's is actually, like, the the library one, whatever you said, like, the legal library

Amy Lefringhouse: 09:51

Mhmm.

Abigail Garofalo: 09:51

Versus, like, a lot of more suburban ones are located in, like, Municode

Brodie Dunn: 09:56

Right. Yeah. That sounds about right.

Amy Lefringhouse: 09:58

When you look for your city's municipal code, you find it, it is like 171 pages long or something like that is what I was looking at.

Abigail Garofalo: 10:08

Yours specifically is 171?

Amy Lefringhouse: 10:10

I don't know, it was something really long. It was long, it was just, it was a lot. But my question to you, Brodie, is what I was looking for was the landscaping code. And there was a lot of stuff in there about, you know, what developers had to do as far as like parking lots and like, you know, like it, like you said, permeable places where landscaping could be and how the height of the parking lot plants and things like that. So I didn't see, there was like maybe a tiny bit about residential, but when I typed in like the keyword weed, like the weed law or weed code, I guess, it came up with a little bit more.

Amy Lefringhouse: 10:50

So talk about, I guess, the places within the code where you might find some of these rules, I guess.

Brodie Dunn: 10:57

Yeah. So you've this is a great question. Unfortunately, the answer is I don't know because every single code is different. I mean, they're like fingerprints. They have they they between two cities any two cities are gonna have things in common, but no two are gonna be a lot the same.

Amy Lefringhouse: 11:15

Sure.

Brodie Dunn: 11:16

So what I do when I'm like trying to go because you're right. They are like a 170 pages long. They're very long documents. Mhmm. Most of it doesn't matter to you.

Brodie Dunn: 11:26

What I do is I have a set of words that I control f, put into the search bar, and I look for. One of them is you you got the first one, perfect, weeds, because it that's most landscaping codes, if they don't if that's if it's not all in the, like, nuisances and and, like, weeds and managing weed section, then a lot of it will will be. So I'll start with doing the the good old control f weeds. Another term there's some other terms I look for. One of them is buffer, setback.

Brodie Dunn: 11:59

Let's see. What are some other terms?

Abigail Garofalo: 12:02

Parkway.

Brodie Dunn: 12:03

Parkway. Parkway is a great one. Every And

Abigail Garofalo: 12:06

all yeah. And all the versions of Parkway, tree lawn. What is there's, like, eight terms.

Brodie Dunn: 12:11

Right? Boulevard. Boulevard. Another good one to is a shrub and flower because often, they'll be like they'll say, like, well, you can only have shrubs and flowers up to a certain height. And you'll so you'll get bits and pieces of this code that that are spread out across the entire code of ordinances.

Brodie Dunn: 12:29

And I I wish I could tell you it's in this section. You it's in section two a dash b dash seven, but it's it's never gonna be that section in more than one code. So you've just gotta to look at it and read. Basically, you have to read the entire thing. There are some sections that you're gonna look at, read a little bit, and then realize you can skip it.

Brodie Dunn: 12:49

But you've gotta really go through it and try to find all of the sections that are gonna matter to your yard.

Abigail Garofalo: 12:54

Yeah. The number of times I've been on code and been, like, using the search function and been like, oh, nope. That's commercial properties. Moving on. Like Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 13:04

Really quickly. That Municode has a really great search function. I like when it's on Municode That makes because it comes up with, like, a list of where all those keywords are found.

Brodie Dunn: 13:13

Yeah. You can cycle through them really easy too. It's it's a very good search function.

Abigail Garofalo: 13:17

So when we we were mentioning at the top, you were kinda saying, like, some of them are really strict. What do you mean by strict? And why are some of these codes like this?

Brodie Dunn: 13:27

So when when I say strict, I I mean they effectively enforce the keeping and maintenance of turf grass. In some cases, to the effective exclusion of basically everything else. The strictest code that I've seen that there wasn't an HOA regulation said that you can't grow weeds. And when I read that, I was like, oh, that's really lenient. Just, you know, really, know, what does that mean?

Brodie Dunn: 13:53

I don't know. You could probably grow anything. But then I scrolled up to the definitions and they defined weed weeds as anything taller than six inches. So, I mean, it that means your daffodils are out of compliance. Right?

Brodie Dunn: 14:07

Your petunias are out of compliance if someone was to really push this. Right? And in theory, these landscaping codes help make the city look the way its its residents want it to look. In practice, I I have found that these kind of have another purpose, which is in my discussions with city planners and stuff, this other purpose is if essentially that they want to be able to resolve disputes between neighbors in really definitive and simple ways. And they also and there's this other thing where they wanna make sure that landowners and, like, out of state landlords can't leave property unattended.

Brodie Dunn: 14:50

Because you have this thing where, you know, maybe someone moves out of state and they don't wanna sell their house yet, And, you know, they look up how much it is to hire someone to come mow, and they're like, oh, that's a thousand dollars for the year. Maybe I just won't do that. Right? And then they get woodies coming up in the yard, you know, woody perennial plants, invasives, and stuff like that, and it's not good. Right?

Brodie Dunn: 15:09

In the the worst cases, this can actually end up costing the city a lot of money because if these lots go on to be abandoned and they have, like, a bunch of trees growing up through them, the city end up has has to pay for that. Right? They have to pay to do the remediation on it. So cities are, like, really sensitive about being able to control this notion that people will might abandon these properties. They're they're just really sensitive about that.

Brodie Dunn: 15:35

So that's sort of the, in my view, the origin of why some of these codes can be really strict.

Abigail Garofalo: 15:40

Yeah. There was discussion around code changes in my community, and we had one of the sites sightings from our city council was due to oh, what did they say? Like, oh, maintenance. Like, they were like, if we needed to do any kind of, like, underground maintenance and you put things in the the parkway, we don't wanna have to come up with the issue of, like, well, you spent thousands of dollars putting plantings in here and hardscaping or softscaping, whatever. Right?

Abigail Garofalo: 16:08

Like, they want that They wanted that clarity to, like, avoid that dispute, essentially, which I think was really interesting to think about. Something else, though, that, like, I feel like that I wanna make sure we know when it comes to municipal codes is some of them are safety standards. Right? Like, site triangles, clearing walkways for for community members who need those those spaces clear. Frequently, I'm taking strollers in my neighborhood, and I'm, like, really annoyed when I have to, like it's not safe to, like, do around.

Abigail Garofalo: 16:37

So I think that's something that I wanna make sure we're not, like, villainizing.

Brodie Dunn: 16:41

Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. No matter what you do in in the context of putting native plants in your yard or any plants in your yard, I I recommend no matter what your code says to overcomply on safety because, you know, I think it's funny.

Brodie Dunn: 16:57

I think I've actually said this before on this podcast, but, like, I used to walk with a cane. And, like, when you have a limited amount of standing time to work with, like, every step counts. So the the notion that you have to, like, walk across the street in order to, like, get past someone's yard because it has, like, you know, the sidewalks completely taken up by a shrub or something, like, that matters to people. And so I you know, just, you know, there's there are codes that, like you said, you limit the the amount of stuff that can be in front of the sidewalk for a certain amount of height. And, like, you should comply with those.

Brodie Dunn: 17:30

Make your sidewalks in front of your house accessible. And, of course, side triangles too. Those are really important. These are these areas where, like, you're looking across someone's yard, usually at, an intersection. And it's not cool when you're I mean, everyone who drives knows it's not cool when you come up to a intersection where there are, you know, weeds and plants and things in the way of being able to see.

Brodie Dunn: 17:52

That's not only a danger to you, it's a danger to the other cars, and it's a danger to anyone who might be on the sidewalk. And like no plant no matter how much we love our plants, there's no plant that is worth accidentally injuring either yourself or someone else, especially someone else. Yeah. So, yes, overcomply on safety always.

Amy Lefringhouse: 18:10

I too, you know, you're talking about use utilizing sidewalks. And just lately, I've been doing a more walking and running around my neighborhood. And I too am like trees are whipping me in the face when I'm running. And I'm like, you know what? This is why we have, you know, kind of rules to just remind folks to be good neighbors and to be good, you know, citizen in making your sidewalks, like you said, accessible, safe, walkable.

Amy Lefringhouse: 18:43

You know, it just makes for a better neighborhood and a better experience for folks walking around in those areas. So I've actually lately have really paid a lot more attention to what is going on along my sidewalk, so that I haven't had never paid attention to before.

Brodie Dunn: 19:00

I I can tell you from personal experience that if you get mad enough at it, you start putting snippers in your back pocket. I that's not a recommendation.

Abigail Garofalo: 19:09

None of this is legal advice.

Brodie Dunn: 19:12

Yes. Definitely.

Abigail Garofalo: 19:17

I gonna add too, like, sometimes the like, some of the codes are due to also, like, things your you don't have to worry about on your own property, but as a community, you have to. Right? One thing that was surprising to me is when my father-in-law went to go put on an addition, he actually had to downsize it because there's only a certain percentage of impermeable surface allowed on your lot in my community.

Brodie Dunn: 19:41

Oh, interesting.

Abigail Garofalo: 19:42

I heard that, and I go, that's because of storm water. That is exactly because of storm water because then you're reducing the amount of infiltration of water that can occur in your community and flooding. You know, we're not far from the Des Plaines River. That's a huge deal. That floods all the time.

Abigail Garofalo: 19:58

And so just kind of thinking about, you know, looking out for the community need as well. There are certainly some municipal codes that are wild and out of whack. I'm not trying to be over here saying, like, all municipal codes are good. I also think that there are some that make a lot of sense because for for large term city planning processes and being a part of that process might be helpful to help understand why that exists, why you can't make your house the size of your lot.

Brodie Dunn: 20:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Lefringhouse: 20:25

So it sounds like we've been talking about, you know, like, the reasoning behind codes. Some of them are very strict. So it sounds like lots of times, maybe your own yard might be noncompliant. So if that's the case, why does municipal code often come up in the context of native plants?

Brodie Dunn: 20:45

Yeah. So the surface reason for this is because native plants are on average taller. And the primary mechanism for municipal codes regulating vegetation is typically height. But, I mean, native plants don't have a monopoly on being tall. There are lots of non native plants that are tall.

Brodie Dunn: 21:08

I mean, like, hollyhock, Russian sage, and I mean, I I don't know. I like, on my walk to work this morning, I passed, like, probably 50 houses that were noncompliant and none of which had any native plants in them. So, like, you sort of have to look beneath the surface reason, and what you find is that municipal code is coming up in the context of native plants because native plants are different. People don't recognize them the way that they do other plants in the or plants that are common in the horticultural trade. And, you know, people think they're weeds sometimes, or they just don't like them and they call them weeds, and, they complain to them or complain about them to the city.

Brodie Dunn: 21:48

And this is kind of key in this whole discussion, this idea that municipal codes are complaint enforced. No one really ever gets gets a ticket for their, you know, being non compliant without, having a complaint from a neighbor lodged against them. It just it doesn't happen. Cities don't never no cities that I've ever been in anyway have the resources to, like, send some around with a yardstick and, like, measure your grass. This is six and a half inches tall.

Brodie Dunn: 22:17

This is not allowed. They they don't do that. It's complaint enforced. So, you know, lo and behold, you're you're this person that I was talking about in the first question. You know, you're looking up and down your street and seeing a lot of noncompliance all around your neighborhood, and yet you might be the only person to get a ticket.

Brodie Dunn: 22:35

And, you know, this can actually be true even if you're actually compliant. Right? Like, maybe your plants are actually technically compliant, but if the inspector comes or whoever's doing the inspection or giving out these tickets, like, doesn't recognize the plants in your yard as being ones that are in the horticultural trade as being, like, intentionally put there, then they might, yeah, be like, yeah. I'm gonna give this person a ticket, you know, because they assume it's weeds.

Abigail Garofalo: 23:01

Yeah. The enforcer could be somebody who, like, literally doesn't know much. Right? Like, or it could be someone who knows a lot and then just wouldn't give you a ticket. Right?

Abigail Garofalo: 23:09

And then or even the other there are a way you, like, somebody who doesn't know much, they give you the ticket, you go and talk about it, and they're like, oh, yeah. You're right. I was also gonna say that I feel like a lot of the times when there is a, like, a complaint. Right? And let's say there's there's two types there's two scenario complaints.

Abigail Garofalo: 23:25

One where it's like somebody who truly isn't maintaining their property, and it is a bunch of weeds. Right? You complain on that person, that person's like, yeah. Of course. Right?

Brodie Dunn: 23:36

Yeah.

Abigail Garofalo: 23:36

Versus the person who's maintaining a native landscape, maybe prairie style inspired, still compliant with, like, sidewalks, but not the height regulation, they're caring for that property regularly, usually. There was a lot of intentionality that went into that space. So, like, the pushback is going to be more, even though they're both noncompliant. Right? I I intentionally did that, and that was for a cause that was supposed to be community driven.

Abigail Garofalo: 24:06

So it it creates this conflict between, like, the the purpose of the code and the actual execution of the code.

Brodie Dunn: 24:13

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, people get really mad about this. I mean, there have been lots of lawsuits that have happened where, you know, a a resident will have put, you know, hundreds of hours into their making the a beautiful garden. And, you know, I've seen pictures of there was actually a story in the New York Times at some point about this.

Brodie Dunn: 24:33

They got this ticket and the city was trying to make them take this beautiful, utterly beautiful native garden out. This is somewhere in New England. And they're they sued, and this the state was like, yeah. You're right. They can have that garden.

Brodie Dunn: 24:48

So, like, it it causes not only conflict. I mean, it causes conflict that rises to the, you know, state court level kind of thing. People are really passionate

Abigail Garofalo: 24:57

national news.

Brodie Dunn: 24:58

Yeah. And national news. Yeah. Exactly.

Abigail Garofalo: 25:00

Well, that's I think there was articles about, like, the Chicago native plant registry going around for a while. That's been in the works for years. But at one point, like, that's how that ordinance was passed. That was like, we're allowing a native plant registry. Right now, it's very much in the the, like, committee phase of, like, what the heck does that look like?

Abigail Garofalo: 25:20

But that also kind of spread wide. That was like, well, we we wanna allow this, but how?

Amy Lefringhouse: 25:26

I found in on our code that it says ornamental. They used the word ornamental, which I was like, oh, okay. You know, it was like, plants that are not ornamental must be 10 inches or less. And I was like, oh, check. Yeah.

Amy Lefringhouse: 25:42

But I don't know. Does you know, like, sometimes its up to interpretation.

Abigail Garofalo: 25:49

is a tomato non ornamental?

Amy Lefringhouse: 25:52

I think they said vegetables and ornamental plants. Oh, okay. You know, something like that. But, yeah, I just thought the I just thought the keyword to me in my interpretation was like, oh, ornamental is a lot different, you know, than something not ornamental.

Brodie Dunn: 26:08

Yeah. That's a really that's a really common phrasing. You know, vegetables and ornamentals or things that aren't vegetables and ornamentals must be a certain height. Sure. And then vegetables and ornamentals can be another, you know, a different height, usually taller, of course.

Brodie Dunn: 26:21

That's very common. And that's that's also where you can get like you said, that's you you said, I interpret it this way. Right. And that's really key. Right?

Brodie Dunn: 26:30

Because it's your interpretation, and you have to be able to, like, demonstrate in some way if you're called out on this that that is an ornamental plant. Right? You have to be we we could talk about this a little bit more later, but, like, you know, you have to be able to take pictures of that thing and, like, maybe have your receipts to prove that, like, I yeah. I bought that, and I put it there myself. That's ornamental an plant, you know, just to to be able to back up your claims with the inspector if that ever happens.

Abigail Garofalo: 26:55

Sure. Well, so what I have, you know, I have something I I wanna put more natives in my landscape. That's kinda what we're talking about this whole season is, like, nature based solutions, and a lot of them are putting plants in our landscape to help promote ecology, promote biodiversity, and also solutions to help us along the way. So what are some things that people should do regardless of whether they think they can comply with their code or not?

Brodie Dunn: 27:20

So, we've already talked about the big one, which is overcomply on safety. You know, cities are pretty lax about sidewalk access, a little too lax in my opinion. Make sure your sidewalk you know, someone in a wheelchair can get through, your side, you know, don't be planting plants that are gonna flop over onto the sidewalk and that kind of thing. One thing we didn't talk about with or we didn't mention before was fire hydrants. Don't be planting around fire hydrants.

Brodie Dunn: 27:43

I have pictures of fire hydrants with, like, you know, three foot weeds all all right next to it, making it I mean, that's necessary infrastructure for a firefighter for emergency. So, you know, don't be planting stuff around the fire fire hydrant, and of course, triangles again. But, you you know, regardless of whether you think you're gonna be compliant, you know, like, let's just say your code is really lenient and you don't think you're really gonna have to interface with any of this. I would still do some basic communication with your neighbors. You know, tell them, hey.

Brodie Dunn: 28:15

I'm putting in a native garden. It's gonna look terrible in the first year because native gardens, I'm discovering this now. I I was because I I I have recently purchased a house and putting it in a native garden, and I was told that they look terrible in their first year. I was warned this. I warned other people that this happens, and by golly, they are ugly the first year.

Brodie Dunn: 28:36

Let me tell you what.

Abigail Garofalo: 28:37

I was Brodie, I was half expecting you to be like, but I thought I was different.

Amy Lefringhouse: 28:44

Mine wasn't gonna be ugly.

Abigail Garofalo: 28:46

Mine wasn't gonna be ugly.

Brodie Dunn: 28:50

Yeah. I I was I was just surprised. I mean, I've got I have a lot of, like, blue grama grass that I've got coming up and side oats grama that I put in. They just they're small. I started with plugs, which is kind of a mistake.

Brodie Dunn: 29:01

I feel like I I think I should have started with slightly larger plants. But so there's there's a big pair of bare patches in my garden that look like they're bare, but they're not. They've just got small plants growing up in them, and they'll be beautiful next year. But warn your neighbors about that. Right?

Brodie Dunn: 29:14

Because they're gonna look over in your yard and see the the terrible mess that is a first year native plant garden. Mhmm. And the they'll just assume it's weeds. Right? And so if you talk to them like, you know, it's gonna look bad the first year, but native guards always do, and and, you know, here's a picture of what it's gonna look like when it's done.

Brodie Dunn: 29:31

You can also another thing you can do, I mean, presuming you have a lot of sidewalk traffic is put up signage, you know, garden in progress, pollinator pocket, these kinds of things. Another thing that I would do, sort of regardless of of your code is to try to comply or over comply with what I kind of think of as courtesy codes. So most cities won't let you plant things within four feet of a property line. That's for the most part, most cities don't do that. But, like, even if your city does allow you to do it, just keep a mowed path between you and your neighbors, between you and your site and the sidewalk.

Brodie Dunn: 30:07

Just it's it's it's easy insurance to keep from, you know, inadvertently ticking somebody off that you don't wanna tick off, basically.

Abigail Garofalo: 30:15

Yeah. That's a good I was gonna say that's a good idea, but it also makes me laugh because, like, we used to have ditch lilies growing between my neighbor and I, and I disdained that like, that was my Everest. Took me forever to take it out. But I did, and now, like, there's no barrier between my natural lawn and my neighbor's lawn. And I'm sure they are not a fan, but I'm like and so, like, the to the detriment of them, but, like, that's know, you can be like, well, I'm following the codes.

Brodie Dunn: 30:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Lefringhouse: 30:49

Yeah. And I talked to I talked to my neighbors just very quickly, just very briefly one one day when they were out in the yard at the same time as me. And I was like, be patient. You know, be patient. It's gonna look really pretty.

Amy Lefringhouse: 31:01

It also looks really different in different seasons too. So like, I mean, at one point in time, you know, in the fall when you're like leaving stuff up just to like, you know, let it go to seed and let, you know, just like not disturbing. It does look, that's I feel like when personally when I'm like get a little nervous that people are like, what are you doing? Why aren't you cutting back all your plants? Especially when the landscapers around doing, you know, all the other yards and that sort of thing.

Amy Lefringhouse: 31:30

So yeah, I just, yeah, again, I talked to them. I was like, be patient, it looks great, and now I'm like the flower lady, you know, on the corner there, because I'm on a very heavily trafficked area where there's lots of walkers. And also I like to leave that mowing strip because I like my plants and I don't want anybody to like mow over them or weedeat around them or whatever, so I'm always like protective. So that, you know, is also being a good neighbor, but it's also, like, you know, protecting my my investment and my work.

Brodie Dunn: 32:03

Yeah. Absolutely.

Abigail Garofalo: 32:04

You could go my route instead, in which the reason my front garden bed exists is because we had to replace the sewage pipe. So there was a giant trench in my front yard from my house to the street in which all the neighbors I heard, they would walk by, and they would like because my family's outside all the time. I feel like they think of me as, like, the chaos mom out with my just three children just being out wild. But they're they were like, yeah, we saw the flags come up from calling, you know, like, 811, and and we knew something was wrong. And for, like, a month or so, there was just a giant trench.

Abigail Garofalo: 32:39

And then, as you know, when you fill in a trench, you have to overfill because the soil settles. And so now we have the we're the mound yard. Right? And so they were like, you know what? At least she's doing something with the mound.

Abigail Garofalo: 32:52

Yeah. And then at one point, it was the ditch yard because the mound then settled so much. And so I think we we earned a little sympathy over time with our neighbors. And we're like, well, you know, she's doing something at least. But Yeah.

Brodie Dunn: 33:07

You gotta exploit that sympathy. You know? Just put in as many native plants right on top of that mound as you can.

Abigail Garofalo: 33:12

That's what I was like, you know and they were like the the people were like, do you want us to take out this burning bush or save this burning bush for you? And I was like, no. I really appreciate you tearing that out for me. Thank you. Like

Brodie Dunn: 33:25

Goodness.

Amy Lefringhouse: 33:26

So my code is pretty flexible in my city from what I read and what I researched, but so I'm pretty lucky. But what if your code isn't quite as accommodating? What do folks do then?

Brodie Dunn: 33:36

Yeah. So, I mean, officially our position is that you comply with every code. But let's say, let's say you've done that and but your neighbor hasn't and you wanna know what they might be doing. Right? So you're not asking you're asking for a friend really is what you're doing.

Brodie Dunn: 33:50

Mhmm. The name of the game becomes blending in with the look and character of the neighborhood. Mhmm. And just overall managing the risk of being perceived as being non compliant. Your blend again is what you're really trying to do.

Brodie Dunn: 34:07

You could do this a lot

Abigail Garofalo: 34:08

Camouflage.

Brodie Dunn: 34:09

Camouflage. Yeah. I mean, that basically, yes. You could do this a lot of different ways, but, you know, being choosy with your species is a is a good way to to start. So, you know, think about the kind of plants that might get out of your control.

Brodie Dunn: 34:23

Yeah. Western or excuse, sawtooth sunflower is my kinda go to example. It spreads like spreads really, really widely. It's really tall. It's like 17 feet tall.

Brodie Dunn: 34:32

You would don't put that in your yard. That's not a good I am growing some, but I'm growing it for like a little special container that is not going to be prominent. Right? Things like milkweed, I would never ever put milkweed in my in my prairie, you know, my my native plant garden because it spreads like crazy. And not only does it spread it, it's also people are gonna recognize it from ditches because it grows all over the place in Illinois.

Brodie Dunn: 34:58

And so they're gonna look at that and, oh, that that reminds me of this abandoned place that, you know, is is out near the interstate. Same thing with thing

Amy Lefringhouse: 35:06

Common milkweed. Right, Brodie?

Brodie Dunn: 35:08

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. What did I say?

Abigail Garofalo: 35:10

You just said milkweed, and we were like, hold on.

Brodie Dunn: 35:12

I was like, wait. Hold on. Common milk. Yes. Specifically common.

Abigail Garofalo: 35:17

Butterfly weed is my

Amy Lefringhouse: 35:19

favorite. Weed.

Brodie Dunn: 35:20

Yeah. Butterfly weed, excellent. So I have multiple stems of butterfly weed in my garden, but common milkweed specifically. Yeah. Things like cup plant cup plant spreads like crazy, and it's pretty.

Abigail Garofalo: 35:32

Any of the silphiums. Just don't plant one of those.

Brodie Dunn: 35:35

Yeah. They're they get really tall. They get tall. And, what else can we do? So using natives in your garden, it it kind of exists in a spectrum.

Brodie Dunn: 35:44

And on the one end, you have, you know, grabbing a quarter acre of raw prairie from, like, a reserve and helicoptering it over into your yard and plopping it down. Right? Like, that's it's beautiful. It's abundant. It is overflowing on all on all sides.

Brodie Dunn: 36:02

It is, in a word, unrestrained. Right? That's on one spec one end of the spectrum. On the other end of the spectrum, you have essentially a European style garden that is common in almost every neighborhood with nicely grouped species and crisp borders and a nice snaking path that's been mowed through it, except you have swapped out a couple of the classic species with natives. Mhmm.

Brodie Dunn: 36:29

And so you have this spectrum, and trying to figure out where you can be on this spectrum without, like, alerting the neighbors and or alarming the neighbors, I guess, is sort of something that you've gotta take some time to think about. Oh, what else? Making sure that you on the side of shortness wherever you can. So one thing about prairie plants in these full sun gardens is that, you know, you go out in a prairie and a a plant might only be three feet tall in a prairie. But in when you give it garden soil and unlimited water and unlimited nutrients and no competition because it's been planted three feet from its closest competitor, they get bigger.

Brodie Dunn: 37:11

So, like, just be cautious about some of the things that you might put in the ground. You really do a little bit of research and talk to other folks that have put native plants in their garden and figure out, you know, what has worked for them and how tall things get in their garden compared to a prairie. I wouldn't recommend ever doing broadcast seeding. I would, at the very least, start with plugs just because it's really difficult. It's it's hard to start a small space with seeds, particularly when you're not super familiar with what plants look like when they're small.

Brodie Dunn: 37:45

Because you might be, oh, that's poke that that's purple milkweed. Right? And you think that it's purple milkweed for a really long time until suddenly one day you realize, oh, no. That's pokeweed. Oops.

Brodie Dunn: 37:55

And you've not been

Abigail Garofalo: 37:56

Big difference. Both native. Both native.

Brodie Dunn: 38:00

Big. Both natives. That's true. But big difference in the the pokeweed is gonna be you know, that's a that really is a weed. It grows up and is a I mean, it it is valuable to wildlife, but it's not a super great garden plant.

Brodie Dunn: 38:12

That's for sure.

Abigail Garofalo: 38:13

My neighbor had pokeweed across the street. I saw them in their front bed just, like, not managing their front bed, and I just saw it come up. And I was like, do you think I could just, like, just just pluck and I just made a motion of, like, plucking a plant because I realized we're in an audio medium. But, like, I was like it's like, just, you know because, like, I know that if that gets to seed, I'm gonna have it. My neighbors are gonna have it, and everyone's gonna start talking about this weed that's coming up.

Abigail Garofalo: 38:43

And I do not wanna deal with it.

Brodie Dunn: 38:45

Yep. Yep. Exactly.

Abigail Garofalo: 38:46

I got burdock for days. I don't need pokeweed. So

Brodie Dunn: 38:49

Some other things that you can do here is not putting things out all at once. So maybe starting maybe you already have a little bit of a garden. Go out and replace one species now, and, you know, maybe next month, you replace another one. Just not doing it all at once. And this isn't necessarily about, you know, you're trying to be sneaky.

Brodie Dunn: 39:08

It's about just, like, making sure the garden has time to recover in between plants that you're putting in and taking out. So, like, it that it doesn't visually look terrible at any given point in time. Right? And in the instance, sort of you have to kind of plan for the notion that you might still get a ticket. One thing that you can do, and we kind of talked about this earlier, is just being able to demonstrate intent.

Brodie Dunn: 39:29

So knowing every species by name so that if you can like, you can point at a plant and be like, that's Monarda bradburiana. You know, being able to say like, I, you know, I put that in the ground. I know what it is. I intentionally, you know, am managing this garden. You know, keep it weeded so that it's clear you're spending time out there.

Brodie Dunn: 39:49

If you can, you know, keep your receipts and that kind of thing just in case, yeah, in case it goes in case the discussion, you know, the the code inspector really wants to dig into this, just in the event that that happens. You know, make sure that you have those receipts on hand. Maybe have a a plan, your your garden plan that you start out with. You know, you sketch out your yard and try to figure out where thing have that available. I mean, you don't have to have it on you at all times or anything.

Brodie Dunn: 40:13

Don't put it in your wallet, but just being able to refer to it if you need to.

Abigail Garofalo: 40:17

I love a spreadsheet. I have a spreadsheet that's like, here's the bloom times of each of them too. So if I add something new, I know what I'm missing.

Brodie Dunn: 40:25

Oh, nice.

Amy Lefringhouse: 40:26

I did I actually have this is like super nerdy too. I bought Grow Native Missouri organization, but they sell plant tags, like garden tags in your yard for your yard, for your garden. And so I bought a lot of those. Just half to remind myself the location because if you're planting herbaceous perennials, they're dying off to the ground and then in the spring, you're praying for them to come back. So for me to remember, you know, exactly where these plants are located.

Amy Lefringhouse: 41:01

But then it also, it shows intention. Right? I mean, it kinda shows that you're that you're intentionally putting those in as an ornamental. Right?

Brodie Dunn: 41:08

Yeah. That's labeling is an excellent thing to to do. I mean, not only is that, you know, proving intent, that is also that's outreach. Right? Like, if a neighbor might walk by and look at that, and maybe they like one flower, and they may not like, you know, the this plant over here and the way this thing looks, but they might look at, you know, I don't know, you know, prairie blazing star and be like, oh, I wonder what that is.

Brodie Dunn: 41:29

If they can see the name of it and go look it up and be like, oh, interesting. They can learn a little bit about that plant. So, yeah, labeling things. Great idea, Amy.

Amy Lefringhouse: 41:38

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, I hope people come up into my yard and ask me questions. I'm like, please.

Abigail Garofalo: 41:43

They don't know what they were walking into when they do that.

Abigail Garofalo: 41:46

That's the problem. Yeah.

Amy Lefringhouse: 41:49

I know. How long do you have?

Brodie Dunn: 41:52

Absolutely. Yes.

Abigail Garofalo: 41:53

Well, I know we need to wrap up, but I wanna ask one more thing. Something that has come out in the last recent years is state regulations around what municipal codes can say about native plantings, about vegetable plantings in your front yard, and even what HOAs can say about these things. What like, I guess, in thinking about too, like, what people can do, like, what's the deal with, like, the state regulations regarding that, and, like, how does that affect, like, local communities?

Brodie Dunn: 42:24

So technically, we have a law. I don't remember which one it is. We have a law that says that it has something to do with it's like the vegetables act or something like that. But, like, a city can't can't pass regulations that prevent you from growing vegetables in your front yard, essentially. They can regulate height, but like it can't preclude like that height limitation can't preclude the idea that you would put that you could put some kind of vegetable in your front yard.

Brodie Dunn: 42:51

The interesting interesting thing about that law is they define if you look in the definition of what a vegetable is, they also include pollinator plants. So there's a reasonable argument to say that that law authorizes you to put in native plants. Now, it is does that mean that you can do it and expect to get away with it? Maybe. Maybe not.

Brodie Dunn: 43:15

I mean, because it kinda relies on this notion of of precluding something being planted. There are native plants that are only six inches tall. Right? So, technically, you could put a native plant in. And, also, the enforcement of this law or, like, this law being applied effectively requires that you hire a lawyer to defend you with it, and that's expensive.

Brodie Dunn: 43:36

So I'm not gonna say that, like, this law shelters you or anything like that. And also, again, I'm not a lawyer, so, like, this is me reading the law and being like, oh, look. They're interesting. That that should cover native plants. There's another law that was passed in Illinois relatively recently that prevented that prevents HOAs from passing from passing rules or or enforcing rules that preclude the planting of of I think they mentioned native plants in the text We're

Abigail Garofalo: 44:05

looking at it right now.

Brodie Dunn: 44:06

Mhmm. So that's that's a really great law. It's very specific, and that one does offer pretty good shelter against HOAs and any of the sort of shenanigans that they might do to prevent you from putting in a native plant. However, this does only, at this point, apply to HOAs. It does not apply to municipalities.

Brodie Dunn: 44:26

Oh. So

Abigail Garofalo: 44:27

Yeah. It's called the homeowners native landscaping act, and it even goes so far as to, like, define what a native species is, an Illinois native species, make sure it's like, it uses terms like intentionally maintained area, goes through to describe, like it even says sedges. I don't know the last time I saw a sedge in a a like a code or a law. So I'm like, okay. Like, it was very specific.

Abigail Garofalo: 44:52

So that's pretty cool to see and something that oftentimes when I was working with the conservation at home program in in Cook County, like, we would hear that a lot of, like, my homeowners association doesn't allow this. Well, like, that's different than, like, your city not allowing

Brodie Dunn: 45:08

Yeah. Yeah. I think the only thing that I would really add is that people really wanna plant in parkways, in boulevards, and that is the number one place in my experience where code conflicts happen, where people get dinged or they get they get a ticket. Cities are really sensitive about that spot, and, we touched on this a little bit before, but because that's where infrastructure, the city infrastructure often is, is inside of that parkway or above that parkway. So they're really sensitive about that, and they will give you tickets for it.

Brodie Dunn: 45:42

And very, very few municipalities, exceptionally few, will let you do anything other than have grass there. A few will let you plant things up to a certain height if you apply for a permit. And one that I know of will let you do it without a permit. That's Oak Park, who has pretty good code, and their code is really interesting because, I mean, it just they let you I mean, it's Chicago land, so, like, that's basically the only place that people can, plant anything, and they let you do it even without applying to a permit, and that's pretty amazing. When you have to apply to a permit, people just don't do it.

Brodie Dunn: 46:18

It like, the they might make they might plant a garden even, and, like, their internal logic is just, well, I'll plant it to the specifications of the permit, And if I get dinged for it, I'll apply to the permit. Right? And if it's really, really difficult to get this permit, they just won't do it at all. Like, they'll just so permitting processes are kind of like, I don't know. But yeah.

Brodie Dunn: 46:40

So that that's the only thing other thing that I would add for listeners is is that stuff.

Amy Lefringhouse: 46:45

And the parkway, when you say parkway, just to be clear, that's the space between the road, the curb on the street, and then the sidewalk. Is that what we're talking about? That strip right there? Varying widths and yeah. Okay.

Brodie Dunn: 46:59

Yep. That that is the boulevard, the parkway. I think Urbana's code doesn't even try to name it because there's so many names for it, The Verge. They so they call it that space, which is between the curb and the sidewalk. It's very funny.

Abigail Garofalo: 47:14

The Verge, I do not like that. I don't tree lawn is my current favorite one.

Brodie Dunn: 47:20

Mhmm.

Abigail Garofalo: 47:21

But then the word lawn is specifically in it. Well, I also think about too, like, you that was a trend for a while, seeing people, like, do off the path gardening. So it's like, take people off the sidewalk, create this little path that's got this, like, nature view across the side. And I got this advice from a, like, a fellow, like, native plant gardener as well who was like, I don't plant anything there because I don't wanna invest money in something that might be torn up. I got enough of my property to manage.

Abigail Garofalo: 47:47

And so I think of it that way too. I'm like, you know, I'm not I'm not really weeding it. I'm mowing it appropriately, but I'm not, like, inputting, and I'm not, like, taking hours removing dandelions from it.

Brodie Dunn: 47:59

Yeah. I mean, it's people often think of this this little spot in front of their house as their property. But, like, if you look in the in your municipal code, there is I think there's only one place in the entire Continental United States where the parkway is the property of the owner. Like, I don't think it is I don't think you're the owner of that property anywhere in the in The US, basically.

Abigail Garofalo: 48:22

Well, Brodie, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge on municipal codes and all, like, the nuances and pieces in between. I find this really nerdy. Amy, I hope you enjoyed this. Yeah. Was nice.

Abigail Garofalo: 48:34

Yeah. It's really interesting, and I hope you all feel encouraged to look up your own municipal code and kind of explore deeply into it. You might be surprised by what you read. Alright. Well, now we are going to jump into everyday observations where we highlight the mundane and normal of our environment that is actually really interesting.

Abigail Garofalo: 48:51

So Amy, kick us off.

Amy Lefringhouse: 48:54

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna jump on. Brodie talked about brad or a monard Monarda, Bradburyana. And I have that in my garden, very short plants, if you're looking for a short, cute little stays in the place plant. But the cool thing was I've had it in my garden just last year, it was like my favorite plant. It was like my plant of the year last year.

Amy Lefringhouse: 49:16

So I put more in this year, of course. But I had someone that was in the woods send me a picture. What is this plant I've seen? And it was Bradbury Monarda. And I was like, oh my gosh, I know exactly what that is.

Amy Lefringhouse: 49:30

First of all, because I've seen it a million times because like all of us native plant folks, we go out into our yards and look at our plants like they're our little babies and friends every single day, you can identify them completely. Just a really cool thing to, I guess, see it in a natural environment and then also see it in your yard. Just that's just one I had never seen in both places, I guess. So that was kind of that was cool. That was a good everyday observation.

Brodie Dunn: 49:58

Yeah. That's awesome. I I love monarda bradburiana It's a great great plant.

Amy Lefringhouse: 50:03

Oh, man. I'd take yeah. I I have a lot of them now. So, yeah, it was my 2025 plant of the year, Amy's plant of the year last year. So it's a good one.

Abigail Garofalo: 50:14

Amy's plant. That's actually that's what we're gonna start doing now is, like, just release Amy's plant of the year.

Amy Lefringhouse: 50:20

Exactly. I think it's a new segment we need to add. Yep.

Abigail Garofalo: 50:23

Yeah. I agree. And it's specifically Amy's. Erin and Abigail's plant? No.

Amy Lefringhouse: 50:28

No. Alright.

Abigail Garofalo: 50:31

Brodie, go ahead. What's your everyday observation?

Brodie Dunn: 50:34

Oh, yes. So I'm I'm putting in this native garden as as I've said. And I, you know, I talked about I I do have some shorter plants, but I have a couple taller plants in there. And I have gotten a sufficient amount of, like, good height in there and enough plants in there. The the yard, my front yard, is an absolute firefly magnet.

Brodie Dunn: 50:57

Oh, okay. Yeah. So my partner and I, Mackenzie, basically, every evening that we can, we have been sitting out on our our, little porch swing and just looking at these fireflies. And it's like the entire neighborhood that we can see from our, porch, the entire there's, like, six fireflies out there, and there's like 45 to a 100 right in front of us. And I'll oh my gosh.

Brodie Dunn: 51:22

It's so amazing. I I have like the the payback or the the payout that I'm getting from this native garden is already insane high. Like, I I just I love it so much. I love those fireflies.

Amy Lefringhouse: 51:35

That is so hilarious. I'm laughing like nobody can see me, but I'm laughing as as Brodie was talking because I was like, brought my kids outside, and I was like, look, look at all these fireflies everywhere, you guys. We have more fireflies in our yard than anyone else, and my kids were rolling their eyes and just like they could not even believe what they were seeing, like my excitement and my like arrogance of like that I had more fireflies than everyone else. It probably isn't true, but they just thought I was the nerdiest, most embarrassing mom ever. So that's funny that you say that, Brodie.

Brodie Dunn: 52:16

The first time there was a lot of them, I I I, like, dragged my partner outside. I was like, behold my bugs. I know. I know.

Amy Lefringhouse: 52:26

That's so funny.

Abigail Garofalo: 52:29

Hey, Doug Tallamy would tell you that's absolutely right. You cultivated those bugs.

Brodie Dunn: 52:33

Yeah. They're my bugs. I love them so much. He would. He would.

Abigail Garofalo: 52:37

Alright. What about you, Abigail? Yeah. Okay. So I will talk about so in my like, in the business park by us, there's a lot of geese.

Abigail Garofalo: 52:49

And we're recording this in June, so there's a lot of, like, the baby geese that are, like, fledglings, and, like, they're starting to molt into their adult colors. And it's been so fun to watch them, like, grow and get bigger even though geese are annoying in some ways objectively, especially at the numbers that they're at. But the coolest thing went down, and it feels like I'm, like, paying off for what I'm trying to do is, like, after, like, many, many weeks of pointing out, like, oh my gosh. Do you see baby geese on your side? Like, as we're driving to school, I I point them out to my kids, and we count them sometimes and they get, like, their white undertail feathers.

Abigail Garofalo: 53:26

And so my son was, like, doing a coloring picture, and it happened to be of a goose, and I didn't see it until the next morning. And it was an all brown goose with a white tail. Like, he purposely didn't color in the tail, so it looked like the geese he was seeing. So it's like a quote, like, scientifically accurate goose. And it was just so heartwarming and exciting to see that, like, wow.

Abigail Garofalo: 53:49

He's, like, taking in those observations of the coloring and then, like, putting them applied. Right? Because, like, how many kids draw, like, a yellow duck. Right? Mhmm.

Abigail Garofalo: 53:57

Or a white goose. Right? Like, so it was just really cool to see and that, like, we can see that transformation and also kind of, like, the parenting of the geese and and all of them in in in in real time. We're even asking questions in the morning like, it's raining. Do you think we'll see more or less geese?

Abigail Garofalo: 54:14

And then we, like, count and see how many we saw and, like, talk about why that why we saw more or less. And so yeah. So it's just been really, really fun to explore that and do a little bit of science with my family.

Brodie Dunn: 54:24

Yeah. That that's marvelous. You've you have a budding naturalist. These are these are peak budding naturalist activities right here.

Abigail Garofalo: 54:31

Yes. Five year old, and he'll be peak at 25.

Amy Lefringhouse: 54:35

I love telling them though too that you're you're a good observer. Like, that you're you're very observant. You're good. Because I feel like they take that with them. They remember that, you know, for a long time.

Amy Lefringhouse: 54:48

I'm even my my Jacqueline is she's very observant, and I've told her that. And so I I almost think that that, like, she's proud of that as she gets older. So, yeah, that's awesome.

Abigail Garofalo: 55:00

Well, thank you again, Brodie, for coming and joining us and chit chatting with us for the last hour. It's been a pleasure to have you.

Brodie Dunn: 55:05

It's been a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Abigail Garofalo: 55:08

Thanks, Brodie. And if you want more Brodie, definitely go check out the, voice of the wild podcast and the wild side blog. Also, awesome really great content to really explore further if you're looking to be more interested in Illinois wildlife. This has been another episode of the Everyday Environment Podcast. Check out next week where we get to talk to Susan McIntyre about floating wetlands and water quality.

Abigail Garofalo: 55:31

This podcast is University of Illinois Extension production, hosted and edited by Abigail Garofalo, Erin Garrett, and Amy Lefringhouse. Marketing and communications are by Emily Steele.